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Delusions of Adequacy
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Zoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomie!
Zoom
It appears that Wordpress doesn’t like STRANGE, ARCANE, nay even MAGICAL symbols.
That was supposed to be ‘Zoomplusplus’.
)
Welcome back! let the symantic games recommence!
Zoomatulations.
Welcome back. It’s been dull without you. Although I’ve been trying to keep people’s spirits up.
Nice to have you back Zoomtard
Glad to know I’m not the only one constantly yawning in church. It’s never because I’m bored. My pastor is always engaging and makes me think.
Found you through Red Wine Gums blog. Hope to keep reading you in the future.
Not to lower the tone but I was picking my nose AS I read “picking your nose”. It was almost supernatural. Hope to keep reading you in the future.
Kevin, Babette: Delicious? Crunchy?
Bab- you are almost always picking your nose. Eithger picking your nose or farting. I actually put that sentence in to reprimand you, blogly reprimanding.
Dave- enough of your nonsense.
Lauren, glad you could drop by. Hope it causes you to yawn for years to come.
thanks for all the comments guys. I hope to have many fine years of receiving your continued commentular adulation on this here blog. Don’t let the tone drop.
OR I’LL KILL YOU!
Bugger. If I’d known about this a little in advance I might have considered making my way up to hear it. Oh well. If there are recordings made, let me know.
Have you read “After our Likeness”? What did you think?
Doodling helps me concentrate.
Problem is… It still looks rude and “I’m bored-ish”. One could tattoo this post on one’s head perhaps?
And, awww, you made it white! I like it.
zoomtard, I really appreciate your taking the time to post this meditation on “theology as the life well lived.” As the owner of a group on Jurgen Moltmann (jurgenmoltmann.com), I review all the blog posts of the day that mention him. You did, and I’m so glad. This is a reason to get out of the metaphorical bed in the morning and think! Cheers!
Thom, I’m thrilled that such a site exists and I’ll be visiting it regularly! Volf, as his student, referenced Moltmann a couple of times during his visit to our little town. We fully anticipate all the copies of The Crucified God in our church bookshop to sell out now!
Thanks for raving. I’m glad you made it back to the world of blogging, and I’m glad I stopped myself from deleting you blog because I thought you’d never make it back. Your blog always challenged me on quite a few levels, and I am thoroughly enjoying the new & dare I say improved ‘Zoomtard’ blog. Thanks. It’s refreshing to read a Christian blog that dares to be bare.
Thanks very much Amy. I really appreciate the encouragement.
Thanks for sharing this. Volf is amzing and has inspired me in many ways through his books and lectures. I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that our theology should find it’s roots in the “heart of life.” It seems to be that so often in our theological wranglings we get to the end and say, “So what does this mean for us?” I like the idea of beginning with that notion or at least pointing our discussion in that direction. Good luck with your future studies.
Hey, thanks for the thoughts. My wife and I were at the Volf session as well, it was great. Nice to run across another fellow theological blogger in Ireland…
Hey Zoomtard, you might well expect all the copies of The Crucified God to sell out… particularly when you (well at least I’m expecting you had some role in your intern’s selection of books) choose them out for certain people…
You can now expect crazed midnight calls asking you to explain the bits of it that I don’t understand, you’ve only yourself (or your unimaginative intern) to blame!!!
Chris, Brad: glad you enjoyed it. We were darned lucky to have Volf just down the road. Over the last three years, the clerics at St. Patrick’s College Maynooth have had NT Wright, Stanley Hauerwas and now Volf. The only way they can top themselves is to resuscitate Barth and have him speak!
MG, you don’t have to ring me up about Moltmann anymore. You can go hassle Thom and his website: In-Fraction. Better than sharing our ignorance together!
The Patriot!Hardly the movie you can hate hate??? I mean sure it’s bloody, violent, long, unrealistic, too patriotic, the children never grow up even though he’s away for years, and pulls all your emotional strings….but what about…..errrrr………
After reading bad reviews for Caspian I still went last night
Cheese tastic and holy wood romance!
Ah shite. Stop giving me such bad news Paul. But if you are in the States, at least that means you’ll be home soon enough, which is reasonably good news.
Greymalkin! The Patriot is a violence-worshiping piece of Fascist propaganda. How’d you like that interpretation?
Daily zoomtards! The internet is good again.
I found Never Let Me Go just a little too cold and clever. A novel you can admire but not really love. Unlike The Remains of the Day, which really is some kind of masterpiece…
I’ve been noticing that culturally and politically engaged Christians in this part of the world, who are switched on to issues of poverty and justice and the environment, are reluctant to get passionate about issues around abortion and embryology etc. I guess it has to do with being put off by the obsessive focus on these issues, and the blunt and insesnsitive way they’re discussed, in some parts of conservative American evangelicalism. What do you think??
Well I look forward to The Remains Of The Day. My appetite is wheted. I think the Guardian satire piece is probably closer to how you feel about Never Let Me Go than it is to my reading?
Now that I think about it, abortion must be the major ethical issue that I have actually never even alluded to in all the years of Zoomtard. I am quite happy to put my ill-advised rants up here for posterity but I am terrified of blundering through the nightmare that is terminated pregnancy. So in that regards I’d probably fit in perfectly in Vancouver.
Embryonics however is something that I tread into with serious folly because come on, how can I hope to understand the intricacies or weight up the potentialities?! If a slow measured, controlled, phased experimentation was to be the strategy, I’d have to say, “Sure give it a go!” The problem with the British parliament seems to be that their approach is so cocky that the only motivation could be mammon; mammon hidden behind much talk of “Progress”. Us Chesterton readers know how to smell that rat….
It occurred to me that ‘hybrid’ is not far, as a word, from ‘hubris’ (ὕβÃÂιÂ), the Greek for overweening pride, arrogance, aggression, outrage. A quick wikipedia-look (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)#Etymology) makes it look likely that they are indeed related.
What a coincidence! ;o)
Cian
Never let me go is the book that came to mind for me with the debates this week, even if not directly related. I agree with above comment though that it’s not a book you can really love but definitely still thought provoking. glad you’re back blogging by the way!
Oh Cian, you crazy adorable nerd. I\’m filing that away for the next time a big ethics council asks me for my opinion!
Anna, cool to see you blogging. Who would have thunk it? Ya kept that quiet…
Mainly because Moltmann seems to be the man of the hour around these parts recently here’s a quote on the suffering point:
“Hope finds in Christ not only a consolation in suffering, but also the protest of the divine promise against suffering.”
I like it because it says that God thinks death/suffering is wrong but despite that is willing to suffer with us so as to console us. Moltmann doesn’t say it directly here but it is inplied: the shocking part is that in the event which christians find consolation (jesus dying on the cross) God also says NO to death!!! Love it!
You forgot the most important thing about Calvinist Man – he will only rescue a small, arbitrarily selected proportion of the human race. The rest are doomed…
ZING!
Man, that Moltmann! If only he could come spend a week in Dublin hanging around drinking coffee and answering our questions!
I think it is kind of funny that I should thank you for the link in your side bar to my business here in a post essentially on consumerism at its ugliest!
it can be found at http://amyheague.blogspot.com/
Whilst I hardly call my web site a ‘Theological Blog’, it is most definitely my desire to introduce the ‘average joe’ to the works of God, breakdown pre-conceived ideas about Christians & I hope my business can go part way in paving the way. I do have a blog that somewhat suffers from ADD & my ego enjoys it when people stop by & comment
A shameless plug I know, I know.
Anyway
THANK YOU.
I’m off to shop online.
I’ll fix that up right now Amy.
Business site gone. Personal blog instead.
Jayber – you’re on to something on the getting involved in justice and environment and not abortion. could a fear of being labelled fundamentalist or extremist, or even a dislike for some of the crazies protesting abortion be obscuring our vision of an important issue?
In fact the more I think of it the greater the need there is for a reasonable christian voice in some of the abortion, embryology and cloning debates
Miller was asking if he could come and play with us. I’ll tell him no.
Thanks. But don’t hurt his feelings. Tell him the priests have banned us from playing there or something like that…
Ooof… how long do you have? Fancy meeting for a pint to discuss?
I’m going to start slow and cryptic until I’ve worked up my rage into one big vitriolic response! Till then:
The gospel is…the church.
Steven- no pint for you until you answer the question! What’s the Gospel?!
MG- nice answer, but I’d love to see you back it up.
What, this guy?
http://www.mediabistro.com/prnewser/original/url.jpg
No. These guys:
http://www.goodsouls.org.uk/iow2005/remiow05_13519.jpg
and
http://www.mtv.com/shared/media/news/images/r/REM/sq-peter_buck-mtv.jpg
who are part of the coolest band in the world. Proved here:
http://www.variety.com/rbidata/photogallery/variety/11263.jpg
MG, surely the gospel can’t be as crippled and broken as the church universal? ;o)
So MG has some explaining to do. But Disapproving Ex-Housemate needs to share their 2 drachma here as well!
The gospel is the good news (god-spell, euangelion, evangelion) that Christ has come into this world so that, through his perfect love and sacrifice of death on the cross, we might (via repentence and forgiveness of sin) know His resurrected Self, with Father and Spirit, and be reconciled both to Him and to one another. This is so that we might have release from the bondage of guilt, sin, fear and death, and become transformed into persons of integrity who can live life in peace and joy, and in its fullest form, enabling us to participate in God\’s work in bringing wholeness to the lives of those around us, beginning now and lasting unto eternity.
A 4 point message that you give after you beat them over the head with the Bible?
What are the four points. I have a very small red leather Bible. Beating with it is very hard….
well… if you\’re gonna go and mention me by name….
First of all… flip-n-heck just as I get to the stage were I think I’ve vomited up all the nonsense I can think off and contemplate foreclosure, you jump back on the scene with the prolifically of a Duracell rabbit.
Maybe we are actually the same person -- and don’t know it, or suckling from the same muse.
Gospel -- “good news”? Which is a big claim for doomsday myth -- I submit
Can’t help feeling its slightly like a moist toilet paper advert… the advert tells you that you have a problem you never knew you had… then gives you the ‘good news ‘that it can solve the problem… for a price
I’ve got better good news for you though…. There’s no hell. Beat that
its one of the few upsides of not being a theist.. there aren\’t many I’m afraid … apart from maybe the knowledge that life is here and now… no point storing up riches in heaven… this is it, make the most of it
are you liking the new REM album?
Hey QM, we can’t be the same people because you are nearly ten years older than me. :p
I notice you didn’t answer the question sir! What do you think the Gospel us Christians preach is? How would you define it as a sceptic?
Finally, I seem to remember you charging God with abdication because there were situations, places and times that were hellish and that couldn’t square (you felt) with his goodness. Does that not contradict your assertion that hell doesn’t exist?
>>>I notice you didn’t answer the question sir! What do you think the Gospel us Christians preach is? How would you define it as a sceptic?
well.. its bad news and good news isnt it? yer all full of sin and are going to hell… but its ok if you believe in this dogma you’ll be alright. but of course every Christian has a different idea of what the good news is…because the bible is so vague. hence denomination.
>>>Finally, I seem to remember you charging God with abdication because there were situations, places and times that were hellish and that couldn’t square (you felt) with his goodness. Does that not contradict your assertion that hell doesn’t exist?
i make no such assertion. i don’t believe that hell doesn’t exist… i just don’t believe hell exists… in the same way that i don’t have non-cancer… i just don’t have cancer. ‘hellish’ is a word i doubt i’ve used.
Urgh. What is the gospel, eh? I like neuro’s definition, but it’s difficult in its own way and full of ideas I stumble over – love, sacrifice, repentance, forgiveness, reconciliation, integrity, wholeness, eternity.
At the (increasingly few) times I find it within me to believe or begin to understand, the biggest thing the gospel means to me – the thing that tugs at my heart – is that, in the end, everything will be alright.
I tried to expand on that a few times, because it sounds so childish, but what the hell. ;o)
I don’t think that last comment is childish at all. Here’s my attempt:
“The gospel is the good news that, through Jesus, God is reconciling all things and making all things new. This involves restoring and healing our broken relationships with God, each other, and the entire creation.”
A few brief comments.
1. The gospel is fundamentally relational – it’s about the restoration of relationships, not just the forgiveness of legal guilt and the removal of the threat of judgment. (And QM – most people I know are very aware of the problem with our fucked up relationships, even if they don’t acknowledge the God-dimension).
2. It’s not just about our relationship with God, but also involves healing relationships among humans and with the creation. Which is why feeding the hungry, peacemaking and planting trees are all gospel issues.
3. It all happens through Jesus – not just through his death, but also through his incarnation, his life and teaching, his resurrection, and the pouring out of his Spirit.
4. It’s not just about what happens after death, nor is it just about life here and now. It’s about something that is happening now and is moving towards a goal – the good end when all manner of things will be well.
How does that sound?
funnily enough… my vicar now just reads from this every Sunday…
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Overcoming-Relationship-Problems-Behavioral-Techniques/dp/1845290666/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212135763&sr=8-7
jayber, I agree with everything you’ve written in that post, but:
“The gospel is the good news that, through Jesus, God is reconciling all things and making all things new. This involves restoring and healing our broken relationships with God, each other, and the entire creation.”
Although utterly true, that doesn’t seem like the full story at all to me.
QM, you can only claim that hell doesn’t exist because I’ve never brought you to a Presbytery meeting.
Jayber- we’ve been waiting for your entry. Old Man McCrory is nodding his head and saying, “That’s good” like a Jazz afficiando.
Maybe, perhaps, possibly, what is missing is what Ex-Housemate not-at-all childishly kind of pointed out: the Gospel is in some sense’s God’s NEIN! (Like Barth, God speaks German) to the world. There has to be some judgment of evil in there… maybe…
I am loving it right now as we speak
Does it not seem weird that this is a question that even needs asked? Surely to be a Christian you must have first ‘heard’ the gospel… assessed it’s reliability and decided that it was true and other gospels/faiths weren’t.
Is it not a bit like being a communist for twenty years, then asking yer comrade… what is communism?
We’re weird down at our church. The smartest Socialist thinkers were always up for going back to first principles every now and again. If I wasn’t a Christian, I’d like to be a smart Socialist thinker so maybe your objection is spot on.
I thought this was what you were all about anyway QM- the questioning of received dogma, the pursuit of intellectual integrity, the willingness to tolerate doubt. You just don’t like it when us crutch-carriers do it, eh?
Hmm… I am curious as to what you believe the tenets of atheism are? What are the self-serving presumptions we atheists employ to ‘bend the truth’?
I’ve been rightly zoomed.
Did I mention tenets? Did I mention individual atheists? Or was I reviewing a book there Morbie?
The scepticism that any community employs is the epistemic underside of any positive assumptions they work from. You follow? So an atheistic community has a prior conviction that methodological naturalism is a sufficient explanation for any phenomenon. If, as is the case when Woland comes to town, methodological naturalism just won’t cut it, the community is compelled to bend the truth or face an identity crisis.
Hmmmed enough?
RWG: Isn’t it *during* the beating that the four points are delivered?
Here’s my attempt (which, reading back over it, takes the form of a series of non-sequiturs in semi-random order):
The gospel is the announcement that Jesus Christ is the Lord of the Universe; God the Father has vindicated him by raising him from the dead and so demonstrating that sin, Satan and death itself have been conquered in Jesus, who is the Christ. The gospel is the announcement that in this world of injustice and chaos the King has returned and is establishing his kingdom, a kingdom where his justice will reign, where the blind will see, where the captives will be released, where the first will be last, where the oppressed will be liberated.
The gospel is the announcement that God humbled himself, and became human like us. God has reached out to us by becoming one of us and suffering as one of us and even dying as one of us. In Jesus we see God and we also see a perfect man — *the* perfect man. Because of his obedience, even to the point of a violent death on a cross, God lifted him up out of death and placed him at his right hand where he is now exalted above all things.
The gospel is the announcement that when we believe we are joined to Jesus. In this way a new community is inaugurated, where what is true of Jesus is true of us. This new community has been given the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God, as a guarantee that the Father will redeem us. Moreover, the presence and power of the Spirit allows us to anticipate that redemption in the present. Empowered by the Spirit we manifest Jesus to the world. Empowered by the Spirit we can truly love God and one another and be reconciled to God and to one another. The gospel is that in this new community, through the work and person of Jesus Christ and in the power of the Spirit, the love, hope and justice of God is breaking out in the world. The gospel is the summons to join this community.
The gospel is the announcement that sin and death were defeated in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. On the cross where he died Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself and paid the penalty of those sins: death! Jesus, who is God himself, sacrificed himself in our place so that we could be free from the guilt of sin and the consequences of sin. Jesus, in his death and resurrection, triumphed over death itself defeating the powers of sin and of evil. The gospel is the announcement that when we believe our lives are incorporated into his life and the power of sin over us is broken. The gospel is the announcement that in Jesus God was reconciling himself to the world. The gospel is the announcement that the forgiveness of sins can be obtained
through faith in Jesus.
The gospel is that in Jesus God has fulfilled his covenant to the Jewish people and has made a new covenant with man. The gospel is the good news that entrance in the new covenant community is open to all those who believe in Jesus and are baptised in his name, be they Jew, Greek, male, female, slave, free, black, white, rich, poor,…
…
I could go on (and probably should) but even reading over what I’ve already written I have one major problem. What I really should be doing, in order to properly explain the gospel, is starting with creation tell the story of God’s covenant with the Jews, climaxing with the sending of Jesus and the creation of his body, the Church. The gospel is the good news that this story has come to its climax in Jesus Christ and we can participate God’s bringing to fruition what was accomplished in Jesus by believing and receiving the Spirit.
I also feel like I haven’t got enough about relationship in the above. I agree with Jayber 110% that “the gospel is fundamentally relational”.
Also, a few I come close to breaking into KJV English or a Wesley hymn or something. Awful!
Anyway. Back to work. I tried.
Hey Bob, I’ll get around to reading that tome on my sabbatical in six years time! Is that what you’d say if a dying man asked you the Gospel? (I think they’re the kind of questions that you Munster Christians use to theologically brainstorm…
)
Seriously I will get back to you on your one over the weekend
Neuro – I’m sure you’re right. What do you think is missing?
I guess I was going for something fairly brief and widescreen. I feel like most other elements are included within the restoration of relationships in those three directions. Though if I was making it longer I’d like to include something about the community of faith, and mission (we get to participate with God in his reconciling, restoring activity).
Things like faith and repentance I would include as part of the answer to the next question, i.e. how do I get in on this whole restoring all things action??
Zoomy: A dying man? I’d tell him Jesus is Lord: believe, confess, be baptised and be saved. Then I’d baptise him in the nearest bath (being a full-immersion sort of chap). Then I’d pray for him to be healed. If he was healed I’d spend a few months telling him all about the rest of the stuff. If he wasn’t healed, I’d explain it all to his widow instead.
Neuro and Jayber: I’m inclined to think that the three-way restoration of relationship idea is as good as any in terms of a nut-shell synopsis of the gospel. I wouldn’t say anything is missing, but it’s a little like looking at looking at mountains from a great distance.
Actually, to abuse a slightly different metaphor, sometimes I feel as if the gospel is a little like a fractal. When you zoom in on the details of a particular element you see the same patterns that you saw in the whole: the lordship of Jesus, the restoration of relationship, etc.
Now *that* is a brilliant iea. Is that yours originally? I am off to consider the fractal explanation. There’s a lot to consider… Luckily, its sunny and 24c…
Although I’m sure the book was very interesting, it was your third paragraph that grabbed my attention.
Your idea of what convictions an atheistic community would hold is wrong, but a common nonetheless.
We have no way of knowing whether any methodology would be able to sufficiently explain any phenomenon. We (atheists) certainly believe the scientific method is the most powerful (when appropriately applied) and pragmatic method of investigation tendered to date, but that belief is not an a priori assumption. In fact, the primary assumption of atheism can be expressed in one simple line.
“Everything is not obliged to be understandable by us.”
Our confidence in the scientific method grows from this assumption. It is a method that embraces our insufficiencies and uses key concepts, like unification theories and uniformitarianism, to help us form insightful descriptions of what little we can understand. So if Woland did stroll into town, I agree that we would exhaust the scientific line of investigation (It might take days, weeks, years, or centuries). But what we wouldn’t do (this is the important bit) is ‘bend the plain truth’ to fit some ideology or assumption about how the world should be. If the scientific method can’t cut it then it can’t cut it.
To borrow a phrase originally intended for political systems: “The scientific method is the worst method of investigation we have, except for all the others”
Well, it’s original to me in the sense that I don’t recall reading it elsewhere. No doubt somebody else has said something similar somewhere, though.
Well I’ve got to say, it’s a novel definition of atheism that doesn’t a-priori reject God, the satan and Vishnu as explanatory causes.
If I come to Ireland will you take me golfing here?
Scott, I’ll leave that assignment to my compadre Keith but I’ll join you guys afterwards in the clubhouse. One of the wonderful hangovers from Christendom in Ireland is that Ministers get complimentary membership of local golf clubs- a nice perk when it costs 34000euros to join!
Brilliantly put.
Not by me of course! But a maxim to live by nonetheless
yo:)
I am not so sure I believe that…I suppose it depends on the spirit in which it was created in the first place, if it swears allegiance to the truth or to a lie.
but then again I’m just a man who can’t even grow broad beans so don’t listen to me….
I think even art that expresses a lie is longing for the Edenic state when we knew the truth…
but then again, I’m just a man struggling to grow some spuds so don’t listen to me….
i changed my mind, then I changed it back…so maybe you’re right.
then again maybe you haven’t listened to Razorlight
If you look at the photos, you’ll also see that they have their bows aimed at the helicopter… so clearly it pissed them off.
Broadbeans are Truth, Truth Broadbeans.
one of the truly amazing things is that they actually managed to get presbyterian church in IRELAND passed. I would have expected two different churches with perhaps police checkpoints between the two burning bushes. i also am prone to occasionally despair for the state of the PCI
as time goes on i find myself moving towards being a closet nationalist (on purely poetic fiddly-dee irish grounds) though i suppose that makes me a raving republican in the eyes of the PCI. I have an irish passport and live on the garvaghy road and can say several rude words in irish. i’m such a wannabe catholic…
Well N&I, Soapbox still remembers all this in detail but back in the day, the PCI was an extraordinarily nationalistic movement at times. The shift to its current Stockholm Syndrome, I mean, Unionist position is complex and stems from the 1798 rebellion, the subscription crisis and the emerging mercantile class of 19th Century Belfast…
I affirm you brother, in your wannabe catholicism, by pointing out that you really are nothing less than a Reformed Catholic. Hold that harp emblazoned passport proudly.
Pissed off and fear Dave. Different things. We need to work on this again?!
I thought Keats should have written:
Broadbeans are made by Truth, Truth makes broadbeans.
Just not quite as catchy. But I wouldn’t have written the poem because I would have emptied all the beans out of the Grecian urn and ate them.
I think we’ve already established that us men only have two emotions: anger and hunger.
Odd. I too am an ex CS student. I loved computers and programming and before starting the degree knew a half-dozen programming languages, etc., etc. I can honestly say I learned nothing during the course of the degree. The course was so lobotomised (in the interest of business as well as the department, which needed to attract and keep as many students as possible) as to be entirely useless. I escaped into mathematics which was an actual challenge (although theology has provided a secondary escape route for a few years now).
A lecturer of mine once said to me he thought anybody who read through and understood SICP (sick-pea, we used to call it) deserved to have their CS degree given to them immediately. It’s a wonderful book and it’s great the have it free online. I approve strongly of the use of a LISP variant as the demonstration language, but I do wish they’d used Common Lisp instead of Scheme. Actually, what I really, really wish is that they’d used Haskell. That would have rocked!
“Sure sure. At the end of the day, this is it, isn’t it?”
That’s Zoomtard pretending to be able to follow Bob. The theology has taken over…
Sure you would. But then you’re not a gardener. The more your garden is true, the more it is broadbeans. Fact.
That is all you know on earth Babette, and all you need to know
Heh. I escaped into maths too.
Don’t you think arguing about the functional language used is a little against the spirit of SICP? ;o)
How we view these fights will depend a little on our view of the gospel. If our understanding of the gospel is purely individual, then our arguments and divisions are sad. But if the gospel includes the creation of a community of peace, then our arguments and divisions are disastrous because they undermine the gospel itself.
Have you checked out the little Regent essay collection called “What does it mean to be saved?” Good stuff.
in fairness, if aliens ever show up, the first thing we’ll do is point every nuke capable of reaching orbit at them
Disapproving Ex-Housemate: You could be right. Still, you have to admit that SICP with Haskell as the demonstration language would be super cool.
May I wax metaphorically?
Thanks.
The Gospel is the culmination of the universe absorbing our midget souls like a stepping stone in a grocery store full of wombatic women waiting for what? Catalogs in the mail. More catalogs. More catalogs they cry. The catalogs come to one woman and she can get whatever she wants. When they don’t come to other women, they ball up their fists and thrust them Godways into the sky not unlike a petrified statue that doesn’t love me anymore in the town square where all the town drunks gather and act like town squares. Playing chess. Mooning passersby and gassing passing gas passers in the sky who rain down millions of dollars of used petroleum distillate exhaust upon the weary heads of the congruent philosophical minutiea eaters that sit and bloat at each other over beer and ale in spiney sea urchin covered cars. It takes a sharp wit and an even sharper beach ball to figure it all out so don’t feel alone. You’re the one with the big fat degree and the heavenly job so you tell us you furry bone charred cantaloupe of justice. You magpie. You plaigiaristic misspeller of youth and witicisms without which wicca would withstand worrisome weathered outerwear.
Save your money.
Eat your veggies.
Don’t watch TV.
Love God.
Thank God.
Best retards,
Dave Hawkins
Barefoot Bay, FL
Sorry about that.
I had just come from a party where we all zoomed in on fractals for about 3 hours. Boy are my paisley pants getting ambient and ambulatory.
Best RETARDS,
Dave Hawkins
Barfbag Bay, FL
I agree that we should not engage in a “battle” with those of different viewpoints because this keeps us focussed within the realm of Christianity. I used to think that Baptists were so different than me until I realized that there was a whole world out there and that I was actually in the same sect of the same religion as Baptists. Mind blowing! What if we stopped trying to engage other Christians and start engaging those of other beliefs or no beliefs. Perhaps then we can engage in discovering “what the Gospel is” again. Cheers.
But the system introduced by Lisbon isn’t as bad as just giving us a vote based loosely on our population size? What I understood is that in QMV 55% of countries can only pass a bill if they speak for 65% of the population, but by the same token, 65% of the population can only pass a bill if they speak for 55% of the countries.
This seems fairer than the American system to me. The QMV scheme is designed to minimise the power that individuals in smaller countries have over individuals in larger countries, but since any solution to this issue will invariably increase the power bigger countries have over smaller countries, they require a higher population based majority than they do per country. I think this minimises the problem for everyone. In America individuals in small states have more voting power than individuals in large states. QMV seeks to balance this problem by allowing the individuals in large states to add their less weighty votes together to some extent, while at the same time not endangering a large minority in the form of a smaller state because they still aren’t allowed to vote by virtue of their numbers alone.
The only problem for me is that it isn’t really 65% of the population voting. It is actually a very small proportion of the population, in the form of government ministers, who speak (where it counts the most) for practically 100% of the population. OK so this happens in any democracy too, but in the case of a republic like Ireland, we vote our representatives in based on whether we think they can do a good job and then they organise themselves in order to govern us. In the EU:
1. We vote our representatives from among our number in based on whether we think they would do a good job of running our country.
2. Our representatives organise their own representatives from among their number in order to govern us in Europe.
We should be organising our representatives in Europe in the same way as we do in Ireland. Otherwise our voice is heard through chinese whispers. The EU tries to minimise this issue in that we do elect the European Parliament directly, and they are giving the parliament more power along with the council. I think the other three main governing bodies should share power with the parliament on every decision. The good thing about our representatives picking their representatives is that those guys are department heads in our country so it makes sense for them to organise the same stuff in Europe, but there should be a safety implemented. The Lisbon treaty has begun to implement this safety in that it has already begun giving more power to the parliament.
Also all European bodies should be completely open and should never meet in secret. Our leaders must be fully answerable and accountable for their actions before they are given the responsibility of greater power.
Once we have developed a safe system, then we can talk about introducing things like an army to protect ourselves from threats. An army is too dangerous a thing to have in an not-purely-democratic community, especially one headed by a man chosen by a body who are not elected directly nor are fully accountable. At the moment, the EU “government” does not speak for the people. As you say, their countries have been shown to be opposed to the decisions they have made.
That’s as far as I got in thinking through the treaty. I didn’t have time to look at it fully and in the end I voted no. Maybe I was wrong to do so because the more time I had to think about it, the less dodgy it seemed, but the fact is, any positives it held were something I figured out by reading what other analysts had to say and by my own mental effort. The Government were no help at all, just like in the Nice treaty!
Democracy is probably a bit of an illusion anyway because whoever we vote in will have more power than the rest of us and can possibly abuse this power, but I think we should try to make this as difficult as possible.
That is a *brilliant* comment. I really appreciate your viewpoint Jimlad. If I had come across so clear a description I would have definitely considered voting yes.
I’m with Hutton on this one…
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/15/eu.ireland
“Maybe pro-Europeans can win Ireland’s second referendum and then, in 2010 or 2011, our own. But referendums work best for the demagogue, the dissimulator and scaremonger, as Hitler and Mussolini, lovers of referendums, proved. Increasingly, Ireland and Britain are heading for the European exit and that could portend further break-up of the Union. Pro-Europeans look out.”
bullsheeet man, bullsheeet!!
thought you’d like that
Did the ‘Hutton’ article make any impact on ye? or did the argument need fueled by a couple of pints?
i agree though that the case for Europe needs to be put to a people a lot better. Although one could be forgiven for thinking that ireland of all places would understand the case.
peoples default answer is usually ‘no’ to change – its for the yes camp to make the case
Just to clarify because you are a Northern Protestant and therefore prone to believe that the Irish economic miracle was caused by the EU- at max EU funding contributed less than 2% of Irish GDP. Last time I checked, Norn Iron was subject to a 4.4 billion pound subsidy annually from London. Maybe that’s why you guys are such dogged Unionists?
Hutton didn’t sway me at all. A great church leader in Co. Wexford swayed me. Here is a segment of a message he sent me this morning:
“… under Nice we agreed to reduce the number of commissioners to below 27 but it didn’t say how, under Lisbon there is to be equal representation, one commissioner per state for two of every three five year terms…. make that phone call to take back your “No”!”
>>> Last time I checked, Norn Iron was subject to a 4.4 billion pound subsidy annually from London. Maybe that’s why you guys are such dogged Unionists?
Nonsense… we in NI ALLOW london to be the Financial HQ, we ALLOW the Submarine base to be in Glasgow etc etc, the people of Sunderland ALLOW most the Civil service to be based in the S East… no part of the UK subsidies another… we pool sovereignty… in the understanding that the Govt tries it’s best to spread the weath.
The fact is that Bristol (where I live) doesn’t contribute as much pro rata to the economy as the Square Mile of the city of London, though it contributes more than belfast (net) . I’m thinking Belfast contributes more than a small village in Yorkshire -- Belfast doenst subsidize that small village in Yorkshire though.
Pooled sovereignty… . This is the case in any country including the rep of Ireland, but you don’t talk of Cavan being subsidies by Cork.
Not sure how it relates to the EU… but it does, a bit… doesn’t it ?
You might like some of Clay Shirky’s essays about media, community and groups.
http://www.shirky.com/
I particularly liked “A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy”
http://shirky.com/writings/group_enemy.html
which resonated fairly strongly with me (having been involved in various online communities).
I’ll be there with bells on (though in retrospect without the bells on, there’s always the same creepy guy there every year who actually has bells on…), have been for the past 10 years or so. But only if I’m still allowed to be sectarian. The 16 yr old bushmills is the tipple of choice i would suggest. I might even sneak some into the big blue tent disguised in a five alive…
Blogging provides me the means to be more honest (or even insulting) with those around me without having to actually say it to them. Though when i put it like that i can see that’s kind of a bad thing.
Lots of people read blogs who wouldn’t know what to do with such a book as mere christianity, so it’s a way of getting Lewis into them without them even realising. If nothing else it makes them think out their faith, even if it’s only in the tiniest degree.
I do not like it Sam I am.
NH that is.
Large collections of Norn Irish christians are to be avoided at all costs. Also they invade our wee town and are decidedly ungracious when fighting for car park spaces.
I do, however, sneak into a seminar or 2. Mostly for the free childcare.
I like blogging.
Just a wee tip… Mention a wee tipple of the local spirit at NH and you will get a one-way ticket to excommunication… It’s not that NH attendees don’t drink the devil’s buttermilk… They just don’t tend to admit in public that they do!
for some reason I saw the name Michael Green and Keith Getty, added it together and got Keith Green.
Then I thought he can’t be speaking, he is dead.
Hide the Bushmills in a thermos flask and have a lunchbox with a ham sandwich. Hopefully this be enough although they will be keeping an especially close eye on you because you are from the free state….
Main benefit of NH is that you get several thousand Christians to agree, that they do, really, after all, when you think about it for a whole week, actually love JESUS. As long as you don’t mention more important issues like whiskey anyhow.
NH is great for flirting with Christian totty… if thats your thing… i’m thinking not, these days.
i still have a CD around my house somewhere of jaybercrow doing a seminar on ‘faith in widescreen’ … was excellent. back when i thought ‘faith’ equaled good
Ok. So whiskey is an afterwards treat, hopefully enjoyed with Nelly And I. Wife-unit is to be kept in the dark while I engage is extra-marital discourse with the opposite sex. And the first fifteen minutes of my seminar is given over to the many merits and wonders that make up Espero and her pro-blogging position.
Sounds like a productive Tuesday so far.
Here’s some blogging things to about (I expect you’ve already done so):
To what extent does being a church leader (of a particular church, in a particular context) impact what you “can” or “cannot” say or talk about on your blog?
More generally, and to the point when talking in front of a heterogeneous (ho ho) group, what are the pros and cons of anonymity for a blogger? Is there any such thing as anonymity anyway?
Even more generally, how does making particular identifications – e.g. “we are Christians”, “we are married”, “we are gay” – colour or enclose a particular community of bloggers? What are the benefits of making identifications, and what are the drawbacks, immediate or potential?
Anyhow, that’s just a few thoughts I had while stirring the chilli. Enjoy!
Why we appear as such hypocrites when it comes to the issue of homosexuality – we only seem to want to be clear about what we believe when it comes to the “gheys” but prepared to let it slide when it comes to the heteros.
Sweet advice. You are surely a chilli-inspired genius.
I have instructed my parents to get it to you somehow, which will most likely take the form of you passing by my house with your window down while my dad lobs it from the living room window. Tis the least I could do for my favourite flamer.
Whether gaydom is genetic/natural/normal or whatever isn’t very relevant I don’t think. The point is surely that it’s no business of the state or for that mater anyone else what two consenting adults get up to in their bedroom. And if two people want to be legally bound (in the way hetro married couples are), what harm does that do? I more and more think that its as much nurture as nature, but I don’t see how my views on that or yours effect should effect the law in anyway.
Ahhhhh sorry, ive just remembered the ‘theistic problem’ with this. nature = god created/intended, non-nature = sin. Forgot.
Very, very good post.
I’ve a few thoughts on this but they’re mostly ancillary so rather than leave them as a comment I’ll post them on my blog (when I have time, ie. probably never).
Still — excellent post.
B
May I invite you to the Bushmills Inn Appreciation Collective?
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2457276900
QMonkey says: “Whether gaydom is genetic/natural/normal or whatever isn’t very relevant I don’t think … but I don’t see how my views on that or yours effect should effect the law in anyway.”
Zoomy says: “Or put more pointedly, in modern secular democracies there should be no need for homosexuals to prove themselves “genetically inclined” before we want to make space for them to live out their lives free to pursue happiness and all the other myths of our age.”
Oh look! We agree! What’s with the “ive just remembered the ‘theistic problem’” tone. (Plus you mis-represent the theistic problem- other times you have protested with me that Christians think sin nature is natural- a position you find insulting…. make up your mind you monkey!)
Thanks Bob. I’d love to read your thoughts on it but you can just share them over a pint if you want. And Nelly&I: we could probably go amateur Freudian on why Christian leaders seem so lax on hetero sexual sin but ballistic about gay sex….
Not yet. Let’s not jump the gun there Williamson! I still have to experience this pleasant place
>>Oh look! We agree!
i know. i ‘was’ agreeing with you. i thought it was an excellent post. i failed to turn down my sarcastic valve.
>>”ive just remembered the ‘theistic problem’” tone
i meant this in a… remembered why ‘other’ christians have a problem… ‘adam and eve, not adam and steve’ etc
>>…protested with me that Christians think sin nature is natural- a position you find insulting…. make up your mind you monkey!
you miss represent me for effect, but thats ok.
qmonkey said: ” you miss represent me”….
Hey, no need to bring transvestites into this. It’s complicated enough already!
i presumed Zoomtard was female like me…
‘you miss, represent me’
This is a very brave post. Such bravery demands I read more of your writings.
To openly admit you drive a yaris is beautiful piece of honesty. I commend you for it and hope for more of the same in the rest of your work.
SF in the M
If a conservative (of any religious persuasion) was to get over there inital shock at what you said here and stopped raving for a minute, i get the feeling (because i said it to myself…my inner conservative wont go away) that the clearest thing they would say in response is that if we got behind Gay marraige then wouldnt we be promoting sin? Wont this only cause a more gay-open society hence creating more people who become Gay… not that its a choice but that if its more prevalent then it becomes more acceptable and if its more acceptable then its more prevalent?
I am aware of all my predjudices.. please hammer me for them . I wish to learn how to answer that inner conservative until he goes away.
SF in the M
oh and i understand that your conter argument against the study as being flawed by pointing out that the number(90) was quite small is not a good argument because it is the quality of the sample and not the number that is looked at in science circles…
maybe though you cant get a quality sample from such a number… hmm
Either way the last [[big study|http://www.familyresearchinst.org/Default.aspx?tabid=87]] that looked at the brains of Homosexuals to compare with heteros only used 30 or so people… and they were dead. so the scientists are getting better.
This then begs the question of what would be your attitude to these civil partnerships? would you attend one? would you give it your blessing? what would you tell your child about it ? “i know they say they are married and look like they are too, son but actually they aint and dont let them have you believe otherwise”.
Just to let you know there’s a t least one person out here on the west coast of Canada who thinks that the conversation you and your boss are having is THE conversation for the future of the church in Ireland…and therefore for Ireland as a whole… OK for the world…damn it alright for the entire cosmos.
I’m reading both of your thoughts with fascination. I have some questions about the “Jesus is Lord” summary of the gospel, but I’ll wait to see what your next installment brings…
Of course, Wright’s resurrection book has been answered.
I wrote to Wright, asking him when he would reply to the rebuttal.
That was 2 years ago. He has not been able to reply to the arguments in ‘the Empty Tomb’ by Price and Lowder.
its all so easy isn’t it
only a fool wouldn’t understand it.
I sometimes think that if you didnt have the god stories to obsess about you’d be just as in to dungeons & dragons or some other role-play conceit
I have Two. Not sure about Eleven. Pick it up from my house when you get Four. Are you getting these messages?
I am getting these messages. I foolishly bought 2 already. I will get in touch with your ma today. Good to have this in public. How are the warts?
SF in the M makes a really good point. Doesn’t endorsing gay civil union promote sin?
It is this concern that drives many Christians to oppose all kinds of things that happen in society. But for me, it is wrongheaded (if understandable).
It’s not the job of the church to sanction those outside the church. Christians were never called to hold the rest of society up to their standards. They’ve had a tough enough job meeting their own standards (which is why I think a response to this debate involves us looking again at what marriage means for us).
Even if there was a study with an excellent sampling rate I still think it would be neutral in terms of answering any of the questions in this debate. My basic claim with regards to the study is that it doesn’t say either way whether homosexuality is “genetic” or “learned” but that’s all moot anyway. Hope that helps you Gerry.
TROUSERS:
I’d definitely attend civil partnerships. If two gay friends were getting hitched, I’d be delighted to be there and I’d be happy to pray for them publicly. Prayer is not a weapon that we withhold! If I ever get around to having childers then I definitely would seek to raise them to have respect for everyone, including their dad’s bender friends!
Seriously, my attitude is not “they say they are married and look like they are too, son but actually they aint and dont let them have you believe otherwise”. My hope would be to raise my children understanding the exceptionally counter-cultural idea that marriage, as understood properly by the church, actually is. There’s no need to run down other ways of life.
Thanks QM. Charming.
Mr Carr, with respect, there is a reason why the Empty Tomb isn’t reviewed in any academic journal. With volume 4 of God and Christian Origins still not finished I should maybe write a letter to Bishop Wright to encourage him to leave responding to internet atheists in the maybe pile and finish his thoughts on Paul.
Jaybercrow, I’m looking forward to your return to the Emerald Isle. Come down and have coffee with us sometime. Often actually.
Batman is the coolest superhero; the best superhero; the only deal in town. None can compare really
Yeah you would be expected to side with him- ya right wing capitalist pigdog.
i was going to give this a miss… but you’ve turned up my interest. I might at least add it to my lovefilm.com wishlist (im a blu ray man these days don’t ya know)
Ang Lee’s version wasnt exactly greeted with open arms by the critics, i think theres a bit of revisionism happening there. I personalty thougth it was crap and a stain on mr lee.
Is captian America not the ultimate US super hero though? (bizarrely i read the Rollins blog entry last week! – again, maybe we are actually the same person.)
I spent ages last night composing thoughts on how blogging is a useful way to get grass roots opinions quickly and to say what you think when no one will listen, but I was half asleep at the time and now that I am fully conscious am wondering why anyone cares what grass roots think. They only ever see people’s feet, and maybe some worms and bird poo.
So now I just think blogs are good ways to point out how good you are at organic gardening.
why, this post has almost nothing to do with me. apart from the ultimate american superhero bit.
The opening paragraph was an homage to you, can’t you tell?!
I think NH is great. Usually great teaching and seminars (and QMs not wrong!). Given the numbers who attend I suppose (being in NI) to some degree inevitably it can have a feel of ’sectarian protestants’ but actually I think there is a wide range of attendees (But still probably best not to mention the Black Bush! – Unless it’s been autographed by Big Ian)
I totally agree with the suggestions for your seminar from disapproving ex-housemate. I often wonder about the whole idea of anonymity. Also the fact that I and some fellow bloggers do not feel comfortable to share their blogs with certain church members/leaders. Perhaps this says more about our churches than it does about the blogs.
Personally I have found engaging with blogged subjects (spiritual and non-spiritual) challenging and helpful in my faith, especially as I am someone who doesn’t read very much generally.
Looking forward to your seminar.
Having been the one who roped you in i’m nicking off to Peru to join the liberation theologians, and play with the minds and hearts of some irish students.
Some of the seminars will be really good.
I’ve tended to do a quick in and out to NH to avoid the pretence at conversations where everyone is more interested in checking out the talent over your shoulder than talking to you. Or maybe thats the effect my stimulating conversation has on people…
WEB SHERIFF
Protecting Your Rights on the Internet
Tel 44-(0)208-323 8013
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Hi Zoomtard,
On behalf of Rough Trade / Beggars Digital, Vagrant and The Hold Steady, many thanks for plugging “Stay Positive” (street date 14th July and advance, digital release date 9th June) … .. thanks, also, on behalf of the label and the band for not posting any pirate links to unreleased (studio) material and, if your readers want good quality, non-pirated, preview tracks, “Sequestered in Memphis” is available for fans and bloggers to stream / link to / post etc on the band’s MySpace … .. check-out http://www.myspace.com/theholdsteady and http://www.theholdsteady.com for details on “Stay Positive” and the band’s 2008 shows … .. for a limited period a play-through of “Stay Positive” shall also be available on the band’s MySpace and on NME (http://www.nme.com), although these are for promotional purposes only and the artist and labels have kindly asked fans and bloggers not to host or link to pirate copies of the full album on-line -- for which many thanks in advance.
Thanks again for your plug.
Regards,
WEB SHERIFF
Wow. Thanks for the affirmation WEB SHERIFF! I wonder if you will Sheriff my digital rights on the Internet? Who knows what dreadful copying of my words might be going on in the darker corners of the Interweb?
The only illegal copying of The Hold Steady that I’ll ever attempt is to steal a big lump of Craig Finn’s hair and clone him from it. Thankfully that will be a real world crime requiring no Web-sheriffing.
I intend to bring a bevvie of hotties with me to stand behind me and so reduce the distance people have to look past me while pretending to care what I think about Man City’s new signings…
Have you tried doing a text search on BibleGateway for “Good News”? It’s pretty interesting. In more than a quarter of the results it comes up as part of “the Good News of the Kingdom” or “the Good News of the Kingdom of God”. There are also a few interesting hits in the book of Acts:
“…the good news that Jesus is the Christ.” (5:42),
“…the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.” (10:36),
“We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus.” (13:32-33a)
“…the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.” (17:18).
Tg
We serious theologists call that “text proofing” Tg. We rule out any naive and unsophisticated text proofing like the so-called Bishop Wright’s “Gospel means Jesus is Lord, (see Acts 5:42)”
Maybe next time you can remember that the Bible is a good resource but it is never to get in the way of the personal preferences of any amateur theologian!
sounds great… but i have some better/worse news…
Oh no! Please do tell.
meet me at the bottom of Slieve Donard, i’ll be baring news… might require a little faith though. Don’t worry i’ll give you that as a gift.
have a great hol:) a month!, im so jealous.
I am still confused. How is Keith’s gospel different from Wright’s gospel?
Great atitude you have there, could we perchance have a sample prayer that you might pray at such a union? Such a prayer would take the form of a blessing yes? what would you bless this union with?
Stanley Hauerwas said that he hates ethics being taught in the form of posing hard questions as this never really does the job of teaching ethics but would rather concentrate on the job of developing people who when faced with the difficult question would be able to answer it.
I recon that you have been “developed” to answer the gay question more than the rest of us but im still not convinced that i could actually go nor much less bless a gay civil union. If the goal is love then by all means legalise these unions and include them into society in a more fuller way. However i cant accept that i am loving them by essentially putting my stamp of approval on what is essentially a declaration ( state awarded!!) of failure before God.
More please from you sir.
Well they are both the Gospel of Jesus (hopefully). But Keith understands the Gospel as the mechanism by which reconciliation happens. Tom thinks the Gospel is that Jesus is King. Why don’t you go ask them Smith! Eh?
cool…. never seen this ending. It’s a wee bit more cheesy don’t you think? Though possibility more ‘complete’ than the other ending. Will Smith is more likable than he really should be isn’t he. I.A.L. was based on a famous book wasnt it (escapes me)… which ending did the book have? – zoom triva
Do you have another ‘normal’ blog somewhere or do you really just see jesus and god stuff everywhere? It borders on the obsessive… you do know .. deep down don’t you… thats its all in yer heed
For what it’s worth, the new Coldplay album is the most uplifting musical experience I’ve had in quite some time. If one can listen to it without licking one’s lips, I’ll buy one one packet of fruit pastilles.
I like the new Coldplay album too but it’s a classic case of the stupidity of reviews- it’s getting slated. Because it isn’t dynamic enough? It’s Coldplay people, not Aphex Twin…
Would you baptise the baby of strangers? It definitely isn’t the way it should be but we all have to do it at some point. The prayers I pray for a not-very-perfect baptism are like the prayers I’d pray at a gay civil union. I’d connect love to 1 Cor 13 and then on to Jesus’ self-sacrifice. Ground it in the Trinity. Throw in some holy language. Raise my voice towards the end of every sentence. Wah-lah!
Crucially, I would not bless the civil union of a couple I didn’t know. It isn’t a sacrament. I don’t have any obligation to participate. In the context of a pre-existing relationship with a couple I would be happy to attend their happy day because they were my friends. But as friends, they would also know full well how I welcome them as they are but by no means affirm them in all their actions. For me, this is no different from my friendship for Jaybercrow, who I love the way God has made him but I absolutely don’t affirm his despicable adult-baptist actions.
I have to love a commenter who quotes Hauerwas at me. His “Why homosexuals (as a group) are more moral than Christians (as a group)” remains one of the best damned essays on Christian ethics and the call to be counter-cultural that I have ever read.
Good stuff… ground it in the relationship.
As you say “But as friends, they would also know full well how I welcome them as they are but by no means affirm them in all their actions.”
I suppose this means you could only pray if they you had a relationship with them meaningful enough to the point where they knew your position on their relationship…
To sum up you would only pray at the Gay civil union of people you knew really well, who were both comfortable with what you believe about their sexuality, in fact who both knew and understood reasonably well your faith and its reasoning….
Tenner says you never get the chance.
Ah don’t you know betting is wrong?
Plus, betting on the fact that my circle of friends is more exotic than you would imagine is definitely wrong.
It’s easy really… all you need to do is get yourself some stronger faith dust, the kind you sprinkle on the Jesus stories. Sprinkle that on Genesis and it works just fine. I know more intelligent and learned people that you who believe in a literal old testament.. they just make sure and bring some faith dust to the classroom.
zoomster… you are mowing down so many stawmen they’re gonna need their own Live Aid
If you want some ‘compelling evidence’ for Claudius’ uncle Tiberius I’ll happily supply. Jesus doing magic stuff? maybe not so much….
Wait… an accident? Atheists don’t believe the beauty of nature is an accident. Elegant complexity emerges from simple beginnings all the time. Just take a look at life as an example: beautiful form from simple, almost tautological, relationships. I am, of course, assuming that by ‘accident’ you mean ‘chance’. I suppose you could call natural beauty an accident if you mean anything that was not decided on by an intelligence, but if we do that then your doubt seems less compelling. If there’s one thing evolution has taught us, it’s that a designer doesn’t need to be intelligent. Systems of complexity, like the eye or the brain, were designed by unintelligent laws of natural selection and random mutation. We can, of course, speculate that these laws were intelligently designed. But we no longer have a philosophical argument to base such speculation on. If Paley’s argument from design cannot be trusted regarding biological systems then why should it be trusted regarding physical law?
So while I agree that science cannot answer questions of purpose, it has shown us that purpose cannot be inferred. An argument for Christianity of astonishing strength cannot come from such philosophical arguments. So if it is to philosophy we must go, then it must be to some other line of reasoning that I’m not aware of.
As for history, sociology etc. I don’t believe it’s been even remotely established by historians that Christ died and rose again, three days later. Though perhaps I have spoken to soon. Although I am relatively familiar with the work of the scientific community, I do not hang around with many historians, so links or material related to historical evidence for Jesus is welcome.
1. When we acknowledge the emergence of order out of biological or physical systems, we are not seeing the effect of design. When I say it is “accidental”, I mean that in a very strict sense. It was with no purpose. When you say “design”, you mean that in a very wide, bordering on the meaningless sense to mean “no one intended it but complexity emerged”.
We’re all just pushing the metaphysical question back a level Morbert. I totally agree with you, wholeheartedly, that the eye has not arisen “by chance”. (I even agree with you that it hasn’t been designed, strictly speaking.) But then we must deal with why order has arisen at all. Why is it an ordered universe exists, where science can be done in the first place? Here, I think (forgive me if I am wrong) both you and I agree that science can’t offer us much help and we’re back to philosophy, art, theology and all the rest of it…
2. Science hasn’t shown us that purpose cannot be inferred. You admit that yourself, “I agree that science cannot answer questions of purpose”. It is your axiomatic assumption that leads you to declare purpose cannot be inferred.
3. This blog serves as a theological sketchpad; basically it is a place I put things that I am thinking about. Some of the texts by historians that I, as a relative newcomer to theology have encountered that have had a considerable impact on me in terms of the historical fact of Jesus’ Resurrection have been The Resurrection of the Son of God by NT Wright, Jesus and the Eye-witnesses by Richard Bauckham and more accessible, The Reason For God by Tim Keller.
It is interesting to me that reading fairly widely across the theological spectrum, no one ever, and I mean ever, has mounted an argument that didn’t assume the historicity of the Easter accounts. But that is cos they are biased, isn’t it QM…
So Morbert, do you only ever read Zoomtard posts with the word “atheist” in them?
you really want to cling on to this stuff don’t you? you must have invested a lot.
“reason-informing-faith” … what happens when your reason informs you that it is at least ‘reasonable’ to assume Jesus didn’t do magic? hell fire?
>>>>It is interesting to me that reading fairly widely across the theological spectrum, no one ever, and I mean ever, has mounted an argument that didn’t assume the historicity of the Easter accounts.
“theological spectrum”
you really think that paragraph needed saying?
ANYONE who thinks that the easter story happened yet isnt a born again Christian, is nuts. NO-ONE who isn’t not a Christian thinks the easter story happened (unless they are satanist, maybe)
Zoomtard, this is excellent. I think my head just exploded reading it, but since the stuff splattering the walls seems to be bits of brain, and not, say, noodles, that is a pleasing discovery in itself. I think you told me off before for talking about post-modernism in Ireland, and now I think you were right and I was wrong. But I was young and foolish and can only plead ignorance.
Terry Eagleton’s review of The God Delusion is one of the finest things ever to grace the internet. In the top 1000 at least.
What QM says:
>”theological spectrum”
>
>you really think that paragraph needed saying?
What QM means:
>”I don’t need to study theology because I know what all those theologians say”
Ah, WhyNotSmile, I am glad I have one convert. Let’s start using ultra-modernism everytime someone says post-modernism and before long we’ll have fixed the terminology. Hurrah! We are semantic superheroes!
I don’t think there’s any meaningful disagreement over “design”. I wouldn’t say it’s meaningless to speak of unintelligent design, as biologists use it as shorthand all the time. But anyway, that’s neither here nor there.
We can agree that science doesn’t answer questions of purpose, but what it does do is pull our socks up when we get too comfortable with certain assumptions. In the past we believed we could recognise design and purpose through function (Fins help fish swim therefore the purpose of the fins must be to help fish swim). It’s a style of argument that has been overturned by evolutionary thought. So while we’re still free to ask questions like “What’s out purpose here?” we no longer have a philosophical argument which says nature and beauty implies a Triune God. This is what I mean when I say we can’t infer purpose.
And as for axiomatic assumptions being responsible for that last sentence… This next, bold assertion might surprise you, but I would say our axioms are identical. Unless you declare “God exists” as an axiom but where’s the fun in that?
Now if you’ll excuse me, my radar is telling me someone else on the Internet has mentioned atheism so I must be off.
*swoosh*
>>>It is interesting to me that reading fairly widely across the theological spectrum, no one ever, and I mean ever, has mounted an argument that didn’t assume the historicity of the Easter accounts.
maybe if they stopped assuming this … they’d be able to step outside of the paradigm. Can’t be many Jewish theologians who ‘assume’ this.
What QM means:
>”I don’t need to study theology because I know what all those theologians say”
i don’t need to study ‘leprechaunogrphy’ to say that leprechauns don’t exist. There are a lot of books to be written and snake oil to be sold in the gap between what we know and what we as yet don’t know.
We no longer have a scientific argument which says nature and beauty implies a Triune God. *You* no longer have a philosophical argument which says nature and beauty implies a Triune God.
I actually think we get on so fairly and reasonably when we talk about these things because our worldviews are so similar. Why would anyone not be a critical realist? If only critical realism was mentioned more often on the web. Then I could swoosh off to engage it. Maybe WhyNotSmile can sort that out?
Oh, QM, a man who isn’t a Critical Realist.
If leprechaunography and theology are in the same category, the question has to be asked as to why you are always debating me on a leprechaunographic website? Is that an example of your Assumptive Surrealism?
“People are not relativistic when it comes to matters of science…”
True. They are relativistic when they are traveling at close to the speed of light, or fiddling around with quantum field theory.
sorry *ahem*
anyway… Strong Atheism is thankfully rare these days. But weak (or what I like to call ‘proper’) atheism, with its agnostic roots, is here to stay.
morbert… i think you’re playing with semantics a bit. ‘Strong Atheism’? one either thinks there’s a god or you don’t. in the same way that one either thinks theres a yeti or not. you’re either convinced by the evidence for god or you arnt… you can’t really be very strongly non-convinced, can you? Zoomtard cant help that he’s is convinced by the evidence… and i cannot help that im not… we shouldn’t be proud.
but surely its semantic at its root. I have a friend who’s a very well renowned Presb minister who says that it would be fair to describe him as agnostic, and that all faith at it’s heart is agnostic – which, to be honest, threw me a bit.
Strong Atheists are people who claim to know God does not exist. They argue that it is impossible for God to exist.
Weak Atheists accept that God could possibly exist. They just have no confidence in the assertion that he does.
It’s a subtle difference but an important one.
i don’t think i’ve ever met a Strong Atheist then.
being sure god doesn’t exist is as nuts as being sure that i can’t fly and shoot lightening out of my monkey butt!
Everyone is born agnostic, about everything. yeah ?
Yeah but.
What your saying aint new either…but your presenting it as if it was. So im curious to know what those who are paid to think about this stuff would say in response cause i havent a clue how to respond to you.
I’ll add “critical realist” to my list of thing to wiki
I tend to be wary of straying far from empiricism. I like the interplay between synthetic facts and analytic statements.
And it’s true that I am not aware of any other philosophical arguments for the existence of God based on nature. Though I’ve certainly looked for them.
People must be agnostic regarding facts. That doesn’t mean they’re agnostic about everything. I am not, for example, agnostic regarding the statement that the Poincaré group used in relativity is a Lie group, as very precise platonic theorems can be used to establish the statement.
So a strong atheist might, for example, argue that god cannot exist because the abstract notions of free will and omniscience create a paradox. Anyone who presents such arguments as proof that God does not exist is a strong Atheist.
But as I said. They are very rare. Dawkins, Harris et al certainly aren’t among them.
ah ok. more interesting that i suspected. / cap doffed
qmonkey, it’s actually surprising that you’re not a fundamentalist Christian, given your tendency to take surface readings and your anti-intellectual bent favouring “good old common sense” over critical thought.
NP, what have i said to deserve this
Am i too dumb and anti-intellectual to realize that all the christian stuff is factual ? is that how it works? all the smartest people in the world are christians? would you advocate setting aside ‘common sense’?
QM is Norn Irish NP: if what he calls common sense isn’t common to you then that means you are not from ’round there. Norn Iron is a local place, for local people, with local sense.
Big Swinging Monkey: what about this acute angle. If there is a possibility that the Triune God postulated by Christians could exist, then he probably does. I likes it, meself
Morb, I have the utmost respect, as you know (I hope) for a humble atheism. I think it and a humble Christianity (what I wouldn’t dare call proper
) are the only two options competing on the field of play myself.
I like the interplay between synthetic facts and analytic statements too. I like the guarded appreciation that the synthetic facts are in fact based on substantial reality.
I am not sure any argument for God deserves the name argument. Maybe I’m going over the top there but for me they are all threads that weave a telling tale. Instinctively, the best argument I’ve ever come across is:
A. The music of Johann Sebastian Bach exists.
B. Therefore, God exists.
You either get it or you don’t.
Zoomtard, I’m just asking a question in relation to your last comment. Firstly I should say that I myself am an atheist just to be clear. I was wondering would not a humble Buddhism or a humble Islam also be a concievable contender? I’m not trying to make the standard relativist point that they’re just like your religion in terms of how solid they are. Rather I’m wondering is there something which theologically or philosophically puts them at a lower level in your opinion.
but if/when you were convinced by the case for Vishnu or Allah or tom cruise… you’d switch … right?
Neuro…I had a Bible Class teacher who was/is one of the country’s leading medical geneticists… a great man, a loving man, the smartest man i know… but as fundy as all get-out! It’s not about having, as you say an ‘anti-intellectual bent’.. my old bible class teacher is wrong about some god-stuff because he has an extra big faith shaker to salt his intellect… i’m all for setting the faith dust aside and flavoring the chips with some “good old common sense” once in a while. Stretched that metaphor way too far – i know
Hey Eingana.
First let me clearly state that in the comment above I was expressing my opinion. I’m not trying to say that anyone who isn’t a rigorous agnostic or a passionate Christian is an idiot.
I would have serious misgivings about both Islam and Buddhism. That’s an entirely personal response but I don’t believe them. Some of the most enlightened comments (puntastic) ever made on this blog were by a Buddhist monk in Mongolia, Konchog Norbu. But for a whole host of reasons too numerous to mention, I don’t see attachment as the source of suffering. With Islam, it is the monotheism that gets me. Allah isn’t loving. How can he be, for love demands a subject and Allah existed alone before there was a before… ah! I definitely don’t want to turn this into an Islam-apologetics conference.
At the risk of enraging QM and his “dose of faith” argumentation, neither of them is rooted in history in the way that I find so compelling about Christianity.
It’s a seriously huge area- why we pick one over another- I hope I’ve explained myself to some degree.
Thanks zoomtard, that was a very helpful response.
you don’t enrage me (hmm, not sure i’ve ever felt rage about another other than sport – tangent). Im very happy that your criteria is ‘rooted in history’. I think your basis for rejecting Islam for being ‘unloving’ isn’t consistent though. What does that have to do with it? Do you pick your gods depending on how nice they are? if so i’ve got a god for you who is really really nice… he’s a bit like the god of NT but a wee bit nicer (he’s not true of course, but hey).
The only bases for believing in a specific god is being convinced by the evidence. And as you are so plainly convinced by the evidence, you have no need for faith (isn’t that logical?). What’s the need for magic intangible faith? isn’t that just a distraction and indeed a hinderence. It wouldn’t need too much faith then to start believing that king Arthur had a magic sword.
Therefore if its all about assessing the evidence then taking a view… how come only 33% of the world call them selves (nominally at least) Christian? Is this the top 33% in terms of successfully interpreting historical events? top 33% minds?
Glad to be of help Eingana.
QM:I think reality needs to be explained by love. Blame the copious amounts of the Beatles I listened to as a child.
You continue to think, like some little AJ Ayer clone, that faith means belief in the face of evidence. What evidence do you have for that? Or do you just believe it on faith? In that case, I am afraid I don’t share your rather large dose of faith-juice and can’t go there with you.
Final paragraph: you do realise I work for the Presbyterian Church, right? We have a really good explanation why only a remnant have been elected. The rest were too busy smiling and laughing when they should have been studying systematic theology!
I was going to leave a comment but it ballooned into a longer response. Come on over to my place…
fliperty Jyp – yes thats right.
Again… i think we are actually the same person (in a twisted triune sense)… i bought a lawnmower last month… it was exactly the same one. Well.. it was the mountfield one without the basket at back, which instead ‘mulches’ the grass (cause i care about the environment and junk)
I now mow my lawn on a bi-monthly basis – something which i scoffed at my dad for doing, less than a few years gone
Z – i do (’believe’ it or not) understand where you shoot from. My assertion is, that you skip over some huge holes in the logic by inserting faith… which is what all ‘faiths’ do. You would accept i presume that there are smarter Jews, Hindus, Muslims than you… who believe their own ‘earth based god signs’ to be historically reliable and yours to be patently unreliable. I’m happy for you to say that you are right and they are wrong… but the implication is (correctly i say) that knowledge and acceptance of historical events is largely informed by the extend of our intellect and the quality of our schooling. Is that not self evident? (unless all christians are given some external knowledge. (ala Paul))
I didn’t think I was truly a grown up until the day I realised I had spent 15 minutes of my life (15 minutes I’ll never get back, mind) finding a tin of paint and a small paintbrush, and carefully painting my house number on my wheelie bins.
Salutations Zoom,
Your posts are gold! Incredible word carpentry. Brilliant. My childhood friend David Williamson’s blog was the gateway drug.
I wish to arrange a meeting with the future Pope and when I’m next in Dublin to visit my parents I ‘m going to have to make a pilgrimage to Maynooth and maybe get to touch the sacred mower.
Shalom and speedy blades
Joel the Custodian
Eingana: I was thinking this morning about how stupidly psuedo-intellectual my response was. I am all about the Christianity or the atheism because of Jesus. I am convinced by Him. Nothing compares.
Jayber: I’m on it. I never thought I could rile you.
QM: Of course you are wrong. Categorically. On both levels. I don’t think that Hindus for example, claim “historical reliability” for their beliefs since history is not teleological in the Hindu cosmology. Basic knowledge of other faiths left to one side, I think I am a Christian because, like Paul, I enjoyed the revelation of the Holy Spirit that opened my ears to hear. It’s got nothing to do with intellect or schooling. It’s all God, all the time, all Grace, all the time.
Sweet! That David Williamson chap needs to get a Zoomy badge. For meritous acts of passing my blog around. It’s like a Blue Peter badge but more awesome.
Looking forward to meeting your Joel.
WhyNotSmile, I painted a cross on my office’s wheelie bin. It was a joke. But the joke didn’t get communicated. Now it looks like we’re weird religious recyclers.
Mountfield for the win QM!
Hindu was a bad example – you pounced. I’m right in as much as their faith depends on your very certain events not having happened. anyway… god chose to open peoples ears to the truth… now i know. Co-incidence how he chooses to open the ears of kids of christian parents… not too many Abdul’s and Lee Ng’s wake up of a Tuesday morning and say ‘mummy mummy someone called Jesus just told me he died for me for some reason’. Is it not more likley that either one is intellectually convinced that their holy book is wholly reliable, or they are convinced by the teaching of another respected person or family figure and impressed by their conviction that its true (and of course the hell threat)… and the non-theist alternative is very unattractive to the human physce. Maybe, maybe not…. not sure its categorical though.
oh the stories i could tell you about mountfield mowers…but i’ll save it for when you are back in the store next week returning it….(if you bought it there)
sorry i didn’t get a chance to stop yesterday, there was a women in rathgar who was wanting to know what colour of paint would suit her living room.
i think you’d like wendell berry talking about his farm and all, you sounded like him in your letter to the Herald, and thats a good thing
Sounding like Wendell Berry?! Best. Compliment. Evar.
What are people for? Buying Mountfield lawnmowers of course. (Or if you are really important, Hondas)
Yeah yeah, the argument is so old and so weak. It’s curious how your particular brand of post-enlightenment scientism is only found in the western world QM? How peculiar. Since no one in Madagascar, Brasil or even Japan thinks the way you do, it must be wrong, right?
I actually worked very closely with someone for two years who became a Christian having grown up in a country without religious freedom. Jesus came to her in a dream.
I know of another man, a soldier, who had the exact same thing happen to him. Except he had absolutely no idea of Christianity. He just knew that this man in the dream was his Lord coming to save him. He was tortured when the New Testament he later procured was discovered. That didn’t stop him.
Around the world there are countless examples of people coming to faith without a Christian heritage. Christianity is now the second biggest religion in China, a country where it is basically outlawed and where it was last strong in the 1600s. Is it the parents of the Chinese church that inculcated, no, brainwashed these believers?
Co-incidence my ass QMonkey. I’ll make sure to patronise your son if he ever ends up being a secular humanist; since that can’t be his belief system, just the one that he was co-incidentally born into.
>>Co-incidence my ass QMonkey. I’ll make sure to patronise your son if he ever ends up being a secular humanist;
thats exactly MY point. whats the likelihood of god whispering in your child’s ear than mine? exactly the same? given that intellect/schooling isn’t a factor. your logic is really ropy in this area. My child like yours is at the moment… agnostic… if god whispers in his ear, and he’s sure … then he should probably go with it… i doubt god will need to whisper in your kids ear.. because as Jabber says… he’ll be in an ‘opt out’ situation rather than opt in.
>>Around the world there are countless examples of people coming to faith without a Christian heritage.
without being ‘told’/explained/convinced that the gospel is true? I’m perfectly ‘happy’ with the ‘dream’ thing (well, you know what i mean).. thats fine if someone has a revelation in a dream that jesus,allah,elvis is god then best of luck… christians hear voices in their head… well ok… whole nuther debate. (lots of people claim external ‘visitations’, and people WANT a god and purpose). You automatically believe these people.. yeah? no evidence needed?
what exactly was your point? i said intellect/schooling must be a major factor IF its true. you said ‘no’ its all god. … im saying in that case..if gods going around whispering in ears… its funny how only 1 in 10 (apparently) people leave the religion of their parents… . Also, that seems a bit arbitrary of him, given the consequences. Are the Soldiers who don’t get magic dreams condemned to hell?
your logic needs a bit of hammering out here – in my humble opinion.
My child doesn’t exist yet QM. But rest assured we’ll raise her in a neutral environment so that she can make her own choice. That neutral environment of course is loaded with assumptions but…
She won’t “opt in” however. To become a Christian is not simply a choice we make but is an act of God. We all opt out, by default because, without quoting Luther and being all hardass, we want to de-God God and make ourselves Lords.
I certainly don’t automatically believe either groups. By nature, I am a substitious disciple. I have compelling evidence in both cases and many mission organisations can cite you similar (and radically different) faith conversions.
Of course, clear and winsome example that serves to authenticate the message of the Gospel increases someone’s possibility of wrestling with God. But ultimately, Biblical Christianity is compelled to say that conversion cannot happen through cognition. Metanoia is a spiritual phenomenon. (Please don’t warp my words again and say therefore there is no experiential or reasoning aspect)
>>>But ultimately, Biblical Christianity is compelled to say that conversion cannot happen through cognition. Metanoia is a spiritual phenomenon. (Please don’t warp my words again and say therefore there is no experiential or reasoning aspect)
Don’t get antsy with me… im just questioning your logic… you like questioning, remember?… getting uppity and defencive isnt the spirit of Zoom nation.
There is a difference between warping your words, and pointing out the logical consequences of your words.
Im saying to you… here and now, that if I was convinced by the evidence for the resuection I would convert (re). I think that everyone would…. I’d also become a Mormon if I was convinced by the evidence of Jo Smtih’s stories. Would this be a false conversion? Would I be still be separated from god because I had used my reason and cognition rather than been anointed and chosen by the spirit? If you believe the bible, then jesus did miracles sign to prove himself -- not much need for the holy spirt or dreams if you’ve just seen a man resurect!!
If there’s a god, then reason and intellect seem to be his greatest gifts to us, he shouldnt fear or punish their use as primary methods. (you’re gonna tell me there are more important gifts aren’t you?…. Im speaking form a non-bible knowing, teleological viewpoint.. .if you will)
>>>without quoting Luther and being all hardass, we want to de-God God and make ourselves Lords.
I’m aware of Luther’s words -- but he was wrong, he was speaking from a presumption of god (pre darwin, for a start!). we can’t on the one hand accept the ‘god shaped hole’ and ‘hand fitting glove’ argument and then on the other hand say that actually we all want to be lords and need to humble ourselves and stop rejecting god. The evidence isn’t there for that. It’s just something that believers say, to post rationlise.
I am slightly taken aback in this discussion, which is why I continue (even though I wanted to leave it hanging)… do you see any need for evangelism?, if one is saved by the holy spirit. You’ve started taking about people having visions and dreams of jesus etc. How would you react to someone who said they had a vision/dream and Mohammed came to them to tell them to do something? Did this Chinese fellow ask for a NT rather than a Koran because he’d been told of the book name in his dream? you should make this guy pope! He has a hotline to god!
I dreamt last night that I could fly… is this god telling me something?
Never make jokes in church. It will always backfire eventually. Often only after several years.
Luther was wrong. But I am antsy. Speaking from a non-Bible knowing view point, I still disagree with “If there’s a god, then reason and intellect seem to be his greatest gifts to us”.
HE is his greatest gift to us.
I am not surprised that you are taken back by the conversation. I mean, your ideas and conceptions about what Christianity is and what Christians must believe and think and do is so strong that any real Christian is bound to confuse you.
I am an evangelist. That is my job. I share the Gospel with people. Regardless of how well I do that and how smart and sincere they are, relationship with God is restored by God. There is nothing at all controversial, simplistic or contradictory in what I have said.
By the way, the idea that Mohamed would come to someone in a dream is so warped that any Muslims reading would want to spew their coffee at the screen…
Good point. Thanks for reminding us. I heard someone backslid after laughing at church. That is, laughing while at church. Of course they didn’t laugh *at* church for that would be “backsliding” in and of itself.
>>>By the way, the idea that Mohamed would come to someone in a dream is so warped that any Muslims reading would want to spew their coffee at the screen…
not a REAL muslin obviously
Do you see how people can get deluded into thinking that their god or whatever is guiding them or speaking to them or healing them or making them bark like a dog or whatever… . ? do you have a view on how that happens. my view is… of course… it shoots from the same bulb as ‘jesus came to me in a dream’. not you of course… you’re completely objective of course.
I don’t think I am completely objective. I’m all hip and contemporary and pomo man. We are mired in subjectivity. You’re the one who demands objectivity- or what you think is objective!
I have no doubt that there are many religious delusions. I never said I believe anyone who says God came to them yadda yadda yadda. But some such claims have convinced me. You can keep “hammering” me but there is no weakness is what I am saying QM. Unless not sharing your narrow minded a-piori assumption that such things can’t happen is a weakness…
>>There is nothing at all controversial, simplistic or contradictory in what I have said.
love it
i disagree (of course) i think you are very contradictory. If what you say about salvation not being a cognitive thing… that jesus can come to people in dreams and visions… and he enters people when you evangelise, even if they aren’t convinced by the evidence for the resurrection … it doesnt mater because one can’t be saved by rationally deciding that the evidence is there for Jesus.
my question , of course is… why on earth did he bother with the whole physical facts things… why didnt he just appear to the disciples in a metaphysical sense, like he did to your Chinese soldier friend? Seems a bit of a confusing distraction.
(i did dream once i was playing double bass for Elvis.. maybe there was something in that)
I never said, “If what you say about salvation not being a cognitive thing”
Ultimately, the conversion doesn’t take the form of changing your mind.
With that in mind, you don’t need to worry yourself about non-questions like why “he bothered to appear”. The whole atonement keeps that on the cards.
Sadly for readers of this blog, I don’t have an MSN account so you’ll just have to write me a letter or keep commenting…
Christianity stands or falls on one thing. Was Jesus the Jewish messiah?
Unless you stick to that… im afraid you start to sound like L Ron Hubbard or david ike with your talk of diety’s appearances in dreams etc (im thinking you’re a smidge more open to claims of Jesus appearing in people’s dreams than any other deities).
To my knowledge the bible doesn’t quote Jesus as saying that we should study our dreams and be open to convincing revelations. You need to believe in the lord jesus Christ… how does one believe in something… either be convinved by the argument for it… or have some external magical revelation.
Have you personally ever had any verifiable external message from God… and if so was it DEFINITLY the god of the bible?
If so, why do you ever have doubts? Do you ever have doubt?
>>>unless not sharing your narrow minded a-piori assumption that such things can’t happen is a weakness…
I assume esuch things don’t happen (of course)… just like I assume people can’t fly or shoot lightening out their butt. I am though open to be convinced. Given that you have THE ONE THING that other religions don”t… ie actual physical god-happenings … Christians should be championing cognitive decision making to the hilt. The fact that your not… and talking about the holy spirit touching people and appearing in dreams etc etc is very revealing.
Close but you just missed it.
Christianity stands or falls on one thing. Did Jesus rise on the third day?
I agree if what you mean is that dreams are far from a robust communicative method. But what I was trying to do was show you that God uses all sorts of ways to reach people, including sometimes, dreams and other times, Christian homes.
Do I ever have doubts? I would go a long way with your friend the Minister who says that faith is a kind of agnosticism.
The Spirit has guided me in many ways and at many times but none of them are going to pass your demand for evidence meaning science.
Finally, QM, you say you are open to Christianity but I don’t think you are being honest with yourself or me in that. You are notable for being the only commentator on Zoomtard who gets all het up about things and I think that is because you are not listening to hear what is said, but to find things to dispute over. No biggie, I mean, this is just a blog. But let’s be honest, one of this blog’s failings is that it “champions cognitive decision making to the hilt”- it is very cerebral. To claim otherwise is, well, revealing.
If anyone else is actually still following this discussion it might be fruitful to remember my closing words in the post, considering the anti-intellectualism that QM charges me with:
“As much as it was true in the early days of the church fathers, it remains true today; every Christian in the pew or browsing the web must wholeheartedly engage in the job of reason-informing-faith because we are after all, “transformed through the renewal of our mind”.”
(don’t worry .. no one follows comments past the first one or two
)
>> Christianity stands or falls on one thing. Did Jesus rise on the third day?
So personally deciding whether you think that’s true…. Is kinda ‘it’. There aren’t that many ways of deciding that, other than hearing it, and deciding you believe it… after hearing other similar things and deciding they are not true. any other approach is open to a lot of wishful thinking and delusion… to claim there is another way gives away the crux of it.
finally, let me tell you a story….A long time ago in a galaxy far far away… there were some notable goings on. Involving some people who made sacrifices to save the world, a mystical good force and a mystical bad force. There was destiny there was honour there was scary music.
A sizable minority of people in the UK say their religion is Jedi. If Obe Wan starts to appear in my dreams vividly and speaks to me regularly… should I become Jedi? Or should I make a cognitive/rational choice that… no, there’s not evidence that the events in Star Wars actually happened ?
It’s the later isn’t it? It involves a cognitive choice. And it’s the same with the Jesus stories… either we have absolutely no say over it, God/Jesus just turns some of us into believers and dams the rest to hell…. OR we make a cognitive choice to believe.
If it’s the former then, as I said… why aren’t there more instances of your Chinese soldier friend or random Africans suddenly knowing that jesus is god.
If it’s a cognitive choice… then intellect and schooling and ability to reason ARE the central factors why I would believe the Jesus stories as fact but not the Jedi ones.
I understand why you can’t accept this… because the implication would be that the 33% of the world who are Christian would be the smartest 33% The alternative… which you’ve tried to put forward re: dreams and revelation etc is even more ropy. There is however one more alternative, uncomfortable as that might be….
The soldier wasn’t Chinese by the way.
Drawing false dichotomies is not a good habit. It’s the intellectual equivalent of eating monster munch for dinner. Careful, you might end up fat.
Either/Or-ing on Christianity and the Jedi. That would be a false black and white there.
i’d created my own apocryphal Chinese soldier
>Either/Or-ing on Christianity and the Jedi. That would be a false black and white there.
now now, that wasn’t my point.
out of interest… how many hits is this post getting… its really just you and me here isnt it
I don’t measure stats QM. It’s not about the acclaim for me.
no stats !! but how do you know whether people love you?
its all about comments really isn’t it.. the life-blood of a blog.
I’m not done with this post yet by the way.. i have another paragraph or two to wield.
I can’t wait. I’m off for a nap in a hyperbaric chamber to prepare.
not sure if ping backs work.. so
Some Stuff Elsewhere
herring!? i’ve smelt your fishy logic, exposed it, and put you in a hurt locker.
The interesting thing is that Barth’s greatest students are not Barthians but original thinkers who have been taught how – as opposed to what – to think and proclaim by the Swiss genius.
I love the Simpsons idea. I’ll try a Sopranos version next week and let you know how it goes…
It’s all those other ‘wrong’ faiths that the QMonkey was referring to. And its nothing to do with the content of the idea… conspiracy theories tend to be diverse anyway…but their central pillar is always that something other than the prevailing world view is actually true… and we small band of enlightened have this privileged information and all those who don’t realize are blinded by ‘the man’. They are similar that any contrary data is simply weaved into the narrative. Not Christianity of course, it’s different.
Yes, thats right, i have started to refer to myself in the 3rd person.
So what is the prevailing world view, eh? Do we just believe what the majority believe? It is a strange kind of reason that you advance…
>>So what is the prevailing world view, eh? Do we just believe what the majority believe? It is a strange kind of reason that you advance…
of course not… the prevailing world view on anything is no evidence in itself of fact/truth. There COULD have been a conspiracy involving JD Rockefeller to sink the Titanic .. doesnt mater if the prevailing world view is that there wasn’t.. if the evidence is there its there, unwrap the evidence and the prevailing world view will change. Its not true of course
, i just made it up ( i think)
We agree. does it give you a weird chill.
I’ve heard a guy called Dave Dark do quite a few Simpsons sermons… you didnt nick his stuff did you ?
This is massive -- you might want to rethink some stuff. The holy spirit visited me last night in a dream (as part of my ‘relationship’) and made it very clear that Jesus didn’t say half the things claimed in the bible. We should take the comments attributed to him ‘in the round’. John the Baptist didn’t actually anoint him as the messiah. We certainly shouldn’t set up false ‘Trilemmas’ to and dis-logic based on unfounded quotes and claims. We are to wait patently for the real messiah to come -- it will be very clear, no need to suspend your reason.
The only person I rob from is Tim Keller.
Galatians 1:8 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”
the spirit told me that Paul was high when he wrote that letter to the Galatians… etc etc sorry im bored and theres nothin decent on engadget or the register
No.
No is never enough.
I am, of course, ‘around Coleraine’ Tomorrow night.. unless by tomorrow night, you mean tonight… oh you do.
Anyway.. my fam are staying with my mate’s fam at their sea front mansion in Portrush. Don’t think i’ll get to your ‘blogging for jesus’ talk
– actual disappointment.
As I don’t know too many bloggers “in the real world” I am looking forward to it.
Enjoyed the seminar – got us thinking – always a good thing.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!
Hey! A Zoomtard world tour, how exciting! If you and your posse are going to be in Portland or Seattle it would be awfully fun for my almost-husband and I to cook you dinner or make morning tea or something. Maybe with Taylor or something… Anyway whether it works out to see you or not, happy traveling!
Hi Kevin
One more resource for church websites is Internet Evangelism Day’s church website design self-assessment tool ( InternetEvangelismDay.com/design )
Blessings
Tony
Pleasure to meet you last night JanMary. As you can see, the post was written before our unfortunate technical difficulties!
QM: you break my heart! To think we could have actually had a pint. I am gutted… I have to give up work for a month to get over the trauma!
‘That [resurrection] will come at the end of the age when Jesus returns. Why is God resurrecting people before the “man comes around”?’
Surely ‘resurrections’ or resuscitations such as these would be of exactly the same quality as Jesus’ raising Lazarus from the dead. They are signs that the kingdom really is at hand, that death really has been defeated and that we really will be resurrected (in the fuller sense) when “the man comes around”.
Or am I missing something?
Well then they aren’t resurrections.
So he should stop saying they are.
Well, fair enough. If he’s using the term “resurrection” then it’s a misuse of the term. I don’t know of any instance where he has (a google search of his site didn’t bring anything up). This being said, I’m not particularly up to speed with things Bentley (I find him to be fairly loud, brash and annoying). Several from my fellowship here in Cork have gone to Florida, although I’ve not really talked to any of them about it, and more have been watching it all on TV. The only thing I watch on TV is the Simpsons.
Still though, when you say ‘Why is God resurrecting people before the “man comes around”‘ you’re not making a very strong argument because, theologically, it’s entirely possible that God is `raising` people and it’s simply being mislabeled `resurrection’.
I’m making a small & niggling point really — I do that a lot.
Yeah it is grand to make a small niggly point and I take it onboard.
But its the absence of any serious discussion in the Irish church, especially the Pentecostal church about the major third part of the argument that disturbs me. About Benny Hinn. About Todd Bentley. About the many charlatans getting rich off the hopes of very sick people.
Did your friend critique you when he explained why you were wrong to critique a fellow Christian, or did he just barely avoid saying implicitly that you weren’t a fellow Christian by merely “criticising” you.
They took the “Oh you said a bad word” approach and warned me in voodoo tones that such criticism might come back to haunt me.
I don’t think they realise what it menas to say one works for a church! I get criticism so often that it feels like small talk. It’s healthy.
Zoomy: fair enough.
I fully agree with you when you say that “The church needs to hold each other to account”. One of the major problems with much of evangelical Christianity is that when you’re the head of a “ministry” there’s nobody to be accountable to. These sort of things rarely, if ever, emerge from a community local to some place. So, it’s rarely the case that evangelist X has been sent out by some community of believers who can hold him accountable. This is, unfortunately, even more common among charismatic “ministries”.
I don’t know much about Bentley or anybody else to say that there aren’t medical records etc., although I do recall reading that NBC didn’t get much they were satisfied with.
My point is if there isn’t a website called http://www.bentleysmiraclesproved.com and an office in Bentley’s home church staffed Monday – Saturday 9-6 by resuscitated miracle cases then they are not delivering the bare freaking minimum. We shouldn’t have to go looking for it…
Not a bad list, this. Hard to argue with at least , ooh, 60% of your selections. I’ve gotten soft in my old age. Also, You Can Call Me Al and Power Of Love are two of the all-time great karaoke standards round my way.
Couldn’t have put any of this better myself. The whole signs and wonders phenomenon, from leg lengthening (which has come around again in Vineyard related churches after it being popular in 80s house churches) to divine dentistry, Benny Hinn to Todd Bentley strikes me as superstitious charlatanism, which is more about the man at the front than the man above who is yet to come. Jesus either sent those he healed off to those who could sign off on the validity of the healing, or told them to be quiet about it. He was not seeking acclaimation as a superman, but seeking to lead us along a road of suffering servanthood. That is not to say that God does not still work miracles through the body of Christ, nor that he cannot and does not accomplish good even through charlatans. But it does suggest that we should be careful of where we attribute the hand of God at work… As for the inappropriate use of the word resurrection… Take a look at the outrageous claims made by the pastor of Alexandra Park Avenue Elim in Belfast.
Ah David, you’ve gone and killed another angel by destroying yet more of my diminishing naivety. Such things happening in Ireland? I couldn’t have imagined it. And yet here are the claims:
“Recent testimonies include, spine re-creation, deaf since birth now hearing, lung cancer healed, chronic fatigue 17months in bed completely healed, prostrate cancer gone, liver failure healed confirmed with doctors report, blood cots vanished, metal plates and bolts removed and so much more.”
Spine re-creation? Next they’ll be curing gender.
The most important question, did you get to the Bushmills Inn?
“If you claim to be friends with the Creator of the Universe and hang with his Son your Saviour”
Do I detect Hold Steadying of your phrasing? Sketchy Metal?
“If this is happening, people, shit is hitting the fan in a way we can’t hope to anticipate and you all better repent and believe.”
Pure brilliance.
I’m with some of the previous comments: Point 1 – very relevant; Point 2 – I think a little too assuming; Point 3 – the clincher.
FLAAAANDEEEEERS. FLAAAAAANDEEEEERS.
As long as stuff like this and this is going on, we need blogs like this.
Completely true, the absurdness of having to seek out the proof of these claims is, well… absurd.
Vox- nicely spotted. The Hold Steady played a gig 5 hours drive away from us here last night and my stupid friends wouldn’t go. It turns out that 18 hours of travel was quite enough for them.
Stig, stop depressing me with more links like this. Alister, I totally agree with your assesment of this entry! Well done me!
basically, assume that magic stuff doesn’t happen, until proven/convinced otherwise? you’re singing from my hymn sheet! or maybe we both lack the required faith.
My Christian cousin was ‘healed’ of M.E. last month(no joke).. (after having it 3 months) ‘doctors astounded’ … QMonkey’s ‘eyes rolled’
Just ask this Floridian pastor to pray for something impossible.. and see if it happens. He can have my house if it does.. as can you (my shed, as he’ll have got my villa).
might it have been a bit like this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GilZZerdZas
Hey
I was pretty sceptical when I saw that NH were doing a seminar on ‘Blogging for Jesus’, and of course there was no way I was going to be caught going to a seminar on blogging (!), but I stumbled across your site a day or two after and the powerpoint looked pretty good so I bought the CD (don’t really want a lot of people knowing that either, come to think of it) and really enjoyed it. Think you were spot on in what you said – and your church sounds really exciting too!
Stephen
PS: Seeing I have the CD, I can put an mp3 of the talk online if you want.
Hey man, i missed New Horizon this year but iv just ordered your blogging seminar on cd……………
nice car!
Bushmills Inn has to wait for another day David, sadly.
Stephen, I’m delighted you enjoyed it. I have no problem with the mp3 going up. Presuming New Horizon don’t mind I can’t object. Especially as I argued Christians should be able to stand over their words…
Thanks Ally. I don’t know how great the cd will be but I hope it is helpful. The car is preposterously huge and actually quite slow. But your elbow sits out on the window ledge to make you look pretty cool so I can’t complain.
‘Tolkeinesque peaks’ …how long have you been waiting to casually insert that into a blog? and you go and spell it wrong in your excitement! Bless.
I wrote up and printed the order of service for my VERY 1ST TIME! this week. The sermon has a fellowship of the ring theme. Like ‘its the cross you carry…’ . I cleverly said to myself ‘I’ll find a quote from the LOTR for the thought of the week!’ but in my zeal, ended up putting in a random and stupidly-alienating little line. Oh well. She’ll learn.
Have you read “Silence” by Shusaku Endo?
Looking forward to welcoming the Zoom travelling carnivale to our corner of the Americas…
He didnt actually destroy alll of them. Apparently when Christianity was relegalised some people”came down from the hills’ with old statues of mary and prayers that had obviously changed from centuries of passing on. The last pope mentioned them when he was in Japan.. i cant remember anymore details.
Jesus is quite big over here actually. The only difference being he’s depicted as a robotic squid with magical powers. He has 250,000 apostles.
Why did you like Boys dont cry? I loved but i researched the real story and the truth of her life made me feel like i’d been cheated into sypmpatising with a hero that never existed.
Kevin,
This is a great observation! I am no Lewis scholar, but I think you have hit the nail on the head with the issue of hope and eschatology.
Thanks for posting this…James Grant
I haven’t seen the film yet… I’ve been in the US all the time it was out here and it had already been there… And I am saddened, if not surprised by the omission you point out… However I fear that the reason that it has been omitted is not about the need for redemption (or fixing) but the means of it… The politially conservative and theologically evangelical audience at which the Narnia franchise is aimed would be happy with the notion of things needing fixed… but be happier with the “muscular Christianity” with its overtones of redemptive violence, than the semi-pagan, restorative redemption (and Bacchanalian revelry) of these scenes. It doesn’t fit the black and white picture of the world they have, where good “conquers” evil.
Thanks for the post. I haven’t seen anyone else pick up on this.
Not sure that I want to see the film now tho…
Well thanks guys. I think you are on to something VM when you say there is a sector of Christianity that really does understand the Gospel in terms that would struggle with Bacchus and his revelry being involved in the Restoration but the fundies have never really (except for a few thorough going nutjobs) had a problem with Narnia and its Bacchus and its Santa. So maybe it was the fear of the reaction of a more mainstream secular viewership… ? They are definitely the target of the moviemakers…
Tell me more about the real story. I know nothing of it.
But I do know that even if it turns out that the whole universe is a figment of Kimerbly Peirce’s imagination, Boys Don’t Cry is one stunning movie
Don’t those apostles assemble to make a giant dumptruck that can lift crosses out of the ground?
Silence is still unread. I’ve had it on the list for years Jayber
agreed zoomtard a great and powerful movie. just so you dont feel too alone i balled through most of it and yes i was also in the uncomfortable setting of a plane!
No one would notice. This sort of T-shirt is too prevalent. Maybe you can’t easily make a point about common fallacy using symbols people recognise because their understanding of those symbols is going to fit in with their fallacy and they’ll miss the point. You’d have to use an analogy first with a symbol they have a healthy understanding of and then tell them it is an analogy somehow. Even then people are more likely to just go – oh but that’s different. Hmmm what to do?
Excellent explanation – works for me!
I actually was struck the most with your first paragraph – why do you think it is that, now that you are working in a church that people are so much slower to talk to you about God and spiritual things.
I mentioned something similar in a post I did about how people find it hard to talk to their pastors – http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2008/07/egads—people.html
Any ideas on why this is? You might want to do a whole post on it.
Excellent reasoning. Excellent post
Sorry to condescend, but in the eyes of society, you’re not a bad person. The “be decent and everything will work out” view affords itself the luxury of defining what makes a person ‘bad’; what could have been considered ‘bad’ 50 years ago may be acceptable today (homosexuality, for example). You and I are not bad people; we pay taxes, give up our seat to grannies on the bus, carbon-neutralise our air-fares and pop a few coins into the collection plate.
My point is that, only based against a standard of perfection, can we consider ourselves bad. Most people don’t measure themselves against the God of the Bible, they measure themselves against other people, and most people come out ok. So why should anyone subject themselves to a higher standard?
I’m such a good person Alastair that I can just brush of your patronising me over my badness.
The problem that I was trying to get around in my sermon was how to communicate the very point you make (which I wholeheartedly agree with) to people who do not consider the standard of the Biblical testimony about God as valid.
By showing up the exclusivity of the “good people will be alright” angle I can take the step and confess my depravity and by analogy demonstrate the validity of the Biblical view… at least that is my idea.
Thanks too to David and Stephen. Appreciate the feedback from all you.
thats even amusing that the Jesus tales paint Jesus in a good light.
Whilst i don’t know you… i would consider that you do more ‘good’ in the world as a percentage of reported ability/power than the Jesus of the Gospels did.. or indeed the Gabriel of the Koran did. Works/Acts as a percentage of ability is surely all we can ask… calling a blind man ‘less good’ for not carrying out life saving surgery is hardly fair… etc etc
Zoomtard may not be bigger than Jesus… but he might well be gooder.
(ITS a word!)
meant “assuming”, rather than amusing!
Is your ass sore after pulling out that comment Monkey?
When is it out in Ireland? Stop-Loss I mean. No good posting these tantalising reviews and then we of the Instant Coffee generation have to wait!
It has been and gone, sadly! But gladly, that means it is on video, so even the child-hassled young couples of the world can just go pick it up from Xtravision!
I can smell blood,
get a bandage a monkey that thing could get infected.
Gee, why the sudden eruption of America-hate? I’m not entirely certain that a silly comedy involving Robert Downey in black-face conclusively establishes that “many Americans are stupid.” Of course, many are, in the way that very many Irish are, but an intentionally-dumb movie . . . well now. Enjoy Berlin. A marvelous city. Ever been to Chicago?
No no no, you misunderstand! The america-stupidity thing doesn’t stem from a movie. It stems from some of the Americans we met or overheard or who forced themselves into conversation with me over the last month. Suffice to say that when I heard a self-proclaimed “progressive” loudly assert she was voting for Barack Osama, I figured something was wrong…
What I was saying in this too-hastily written post was that the reviews for Tropic Thunder were way over the top. I realise I didn’t make that point at all. Apologies to one and all!
Chicago is still virgin territory. For a while.
I live with Zoomtard. I can assure you all that he is indeed depraved.
Not half as depraved as that there qmonkey though; his brains seem to be pure mush.
I only say this to prove I am also a bad person.
I’ve always said that even some of my worst f*rts contain an element of divine ‘truth’
I like that adjective: “young”. Ahhh…. You’ve made my day.
You have too much time on your hands. You need to come to “Of Genesis and Genes” 11th September in the Springfield Hotel, Leixlip. I’ll be there talking about Genesis and Genes (and fossils and a few cute animals too). I emailed your church office so maybe you already heard the definite date.
I am of the opinion that Christianity operates best in a grass roots style. Constantine was perhaps the first person to prove the danger of “Christianity in power”.
However, although Halden talks about how American Christians are trapped in a loop of capitalism and politics, someone’s gotta do it. So even if Obama struggles to be the all the change that he promised, and even if Don Miller ends up being the Democratic Christian poster boy (no doubt I’ll see some cartoons of his head on a donkey’s body), and even if Christians are suddenly finding themselves divided on a political spectrum, Christians need to have their say in these elections. And every subsequent election.
America will always be corny and over the top, and their politicians will always invoke the name of God, and Christians will always be a demographic to be targetted. Not-voting is no option, regardless of how depressing you may find the choice. Believe me, I know, I’m from Northern Ireland.
See I am not sure “someone has to do it”. Why do we have to remain inside the capitalist loop?
Cue rolled eyes at Zoomy’s teenaged socialist ideals.
Why not abstain from voting?
Too much time? I bill the church for every film I see. Sermon prep.
I will be there. I can’t wait. I’ll be dragging every god-damned person I can to come along too. And I’ll be advertising it in my church. If you let me, I might even interview you for a Zoomtard. What say you?
…to be fair. he has a GREAT name.
i’d say… its not this kind of thing that hurts the church… its the little every day delusions. its the ‘i prayed to god and he took away my [enter illness here] or guided me to [enter job/girl here]‘.
Right. So you are saying that a chart-topping worship leader at a megachurch who is revealed to have defrauded his family, the church and the whole world with a spurious and fake cancer and then excuses his behaviour based on an “addiction” to porn doesn’t hurt the church?
You are a strange little monkey. God told me to tell you.
strange is a relative
my point is… don’t worry.. people look at fraudsters like this and shrug.. they don’t tar you all with the same brush.
In the same way that you don’t tar all atheists as being Stalin or indeed all preachers as being jimmy swaggart.
what i would say … is its important to analyze how easy it is for people to be deluded that miracles are happening… all it needs is a bit of hope massaging, and maybe some good rousing community singing.
look at the delusion in others… take a breath and dare to think that either or both of us could be shaking a little wishful thinking on our worldviews.
I’d guess CS Lewis. It certainly sounds like something he has said, but whether or not it’s *actually* him is another matter entirely.
if it ’sounds a bit like CSL’ its probably GKC saying it first. thats what i find.
though. i’m thinking Freud ? anything with the words sex and psychology usually is
Capitalism rules supreme. Understand that when I read about Bill Gates’ “Creative Capitalism”, I curse about how he’s missed the point, that a system that exists in an “exploit – fix – exploit – fix” cycle is close to worthless. I’m not an advocate of capitalism, but I am a realist – and capitalism won’t go away because we ignore it.
The American democracy has stood for hundreds of years, and yet we still see abuse of power. If we, as the electorate didn’t vote, we accept the status quo, diminish our power, and increase the power of trigger happy men like George Bush (I am aware we can’t vote in the American elections!)
What, would you suggest, is the alternative?
Hugh Hefner.
Dawn French
>>>”exploit – fix – exploit – fix” cycle is close to worthless.
China has brought 250million people out of poverty in the last 20 years.. through embracing market capitalism!!! Meritocracy is natural order.
Free/Fair trade is how to bring the 3rd world from poverty… in the same way that it did for us 300-400 years ago. idealistic tuting at capitalism is quite self indulgent. have a go at Jeff Sachs book (forward by bono, so you’ll prob like it)
http://www.amazon.com/End-Poverty-Economic-Possibilities-Time/dp/1594200459
Have read it Qmonkey. It still doesn’t deal with the economic reality that when bad times come in capitalism (and it is designed to have bad times), the poor suffer but when good times come the rich get richer.
I totally agree that we need to vote. I just wish there was another way Alistair. Give me a few weeks to come up with an alternative economic practice and then we’ll sort it out, ok?
Also, China as an example of a meritocracy and a market capitalist state? Is my brother the economist around here lurking to save me from this mentalness?!?
>>>Also, China as an example of a meritocracy and a market capitalist state?
sounds weird i know. The example was used as a … China is moving in this direction… (over the last 20 years) and this has resulted in more ‘good’ than socialism ever gave the world (arguably) (deliberately controversially, as usual)
on the books to recommend – Will Hutton’s China…. book is great.. .im about half way through it… hence throwing in the china stat
capitalism has its hicups.. of course.. (as does evolution) … im not advocating survival of the fittest.. whatever. i’m just advocating .. well… i guess the economic policy of pretty much every EU member.. hardly controversial. damm!
Agreed, China is catching up with the Western world, and the free market has greatly helped. But does your book tell you how many are still below the poverty line in China? I assume it does. Are the rich not getting richer in China, while the poor get poorer?
Many countries have “missed the boat” that China and the rest of the emerging world have embraked upon, again leaving small, underdeveloped, probably war-torn countries (mostly in Africa) languishing in poverty, and the free market does not help them in the slightest. There is no denying that free trade has been forced upon some countries to their ultimate disadvantage.
As for the developed world, well, we only have to look at how Ireland (South, sorry Nordies) has blossomed over the last 15 years to see how well the EU and free market has worked for us. Ireland now has more than 30,000 millionaires, and I recently heard that we are the second richest country per capita in the world, behind only Japan. But then again, the market jitters have forced the hand of the fat cats to start firing employees because, horror of horrors, their profit from last year is nearly wiped out.
I even had a dream last night that I was laid off (albeit I was a bus driver in county Antrim – couldn’t be farther from what I do or where I live!)
Great photos. But postsecret? It’s a den of vile pretension.
zoomtard links to a good site shocker. must say thanks, i’d added this one to my rss thingy.
postsecret is a weekly must… pretentious? of course.. but even the pretension says enlightening
I and Thou by Martin Buber… Can’t remember if you’ve read it or not
Ex-housemate has no heart. That is why he recently had a child. He hopes to take hers: the evil genius!
Read it back in the day. Any other suggestions…
I very much like the word ’shitecrow’.
“the only way Christians can live lives worthy of the Gospel is to take full account of the duplicity that runs amok without discipline and accountability”…
I second that Zoomtard and I hope that everybody who reads this blog and hears of such stories will realise the need for themselves to have accountability…that we will all realise that it is when we get serious about following the Lord Jesus Christ that the enemy gets serious about tearing us down…
Notes from the Underground (Dostoevsky) is great and quite short…
Answers to Prayer by George Mueller
Memoirs and Remains of Robert Murray M’Cheyne by Andrew Bonar
Harvey Penick’s Little Red Golf Book
…are my suggestions
The Royal Festival Hall (Southbank) has acres of space and brews a decent coffee – I’ve spent many a happy hour there.
Thank you for the tip Stu. If all went to plan, I’d occupy a seat there for the day on Monday!
http://www.monmouthcoffee.co.uk/ourshops.htm#coventgarden
the best in town
Ah. Thanks Dud. I have fond memories of Monmouth. Perhaps I’ll brave even Covent Garden for this place.
What is positivism?
That sounds like the kind of stuff you’d read in the college newspaper.
It’s a hoary old philosophy from before the second war that argued that anything that couldn’t be empirically observed can’t be talked about sensibly.
arseattack? Beautiful tag-name.
I’d never heard of it either. Though I just assumed that it was something that didn’t leave room for god’s and ghouls doing magic stuff, hence zoomtard’s haughty dismissal.
Will be sure to wiki it.
Thanks.
And i had an itch. twas a pshcyosomatic choosing.
Is Zoomtard going to become all about economics and theology now? If it is that is very cool…
Hooray for free markets and hooray for Jesus!
… but then the prices will go up. And I like cheap(ish) bus fares.
You obviously don’t believe in Mark’s Gospel of the Free Market then. My little brother can offer you the apologetics, however. Here he proves that competition lowers prices:
http://picasaweb.google.com/kevin.hargaden/InitialTestFolder#5244333959131238178
need to revolutionize peoples’ attitudes towards taking the bus, me concludes…
Does that go for all kinds of love?
It goes for the essence. I am sure it can take many other forms but the heart of love isn’t reactive.
Interview me! Your fan, desperately craving publicity, Claire. (Also feeling nervous. And surfing the net to avoid one last practice of this talk)
Our neighbour’s network is called “LaurieIsRetarded”. I’m guessing Laurie needed help setting it up.
I’ll bring my recorder! I’ll interview you! It will all be brilliant! I can’t wait! EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!
Which is why some men beat the crap outa their women alot and yet they still hang around.
It isn’t passive either though, is it?
No. From what ive heard they are quite un-passive in their love. …but then maybe thats not really love at all but something else, a twisted idol that they serve to get something that overcomes the beatings…
and anyway is it ok to call someones love as totally idolatrous.. i can see such a woman spitting in my face and tellling me i dont understand.
I don’t know if I want to tell someone *their* love is idolatrous but I do think “idolatrous love” exists.I think you’ve got good words to explain why it exists too; love is so powerful that even when it warped and imperfect and even twisted, it can allow us to overcome the most horrible of circumstances…
Wait a minite….forget all this radical talk, you had 1 pint in 3 and a half hours? Either pints in Maynooth never go flat, ye are really slow drinkers or Maynooth pints are huge and underated?
No. We went for one pint, ended up staying for a long time and drank a little bit more than we ought to so we all walked home. Do I pass your drunkards test Jurg?
I love that my hometown is famous.
(and I’m not talking about that liberal cesspoll of Maynooth)
Ballymena haigh?
S’right boss. B’fore the twinklin lights o the fair city caught me eye.
Don’t worry kevin
you’re not going to have to do anything so servantile and basic and, y’know, Christ-like as cleaning the fridge. I did that during the summer.
Up may not have rocked but I think it’s still blatantly their best album.
Accelerate left me a cold and I was quite prepared to love it.
Nice post. Mostly because you made me nostalgic for Christmas 1996 and that computer that lasted so long. (On a point of correction, though: our house first got online on the Packard Bell in 1994.)
Accelerate still doesn’t do it for me. New Adventures and Up tower above it in my eyes. If you want to be rocked, listen to Paranoid Android. If you want REM-rock, the late ’90s still represents their peak.
REM rock reached its peak in the 1990s? Maybe some money fell on your head and made you brain-damaged. Give me Reckoning any day of the week over well, every rocking album ever released.
If you want craft and ingenuity and all that wanky musicianship then I am happy to agree that Up and New Adventures are the best. But both you and Rossa should go for a run listening to Accelerate and you’ll we wowed.
On a point of correction, though: our house first may have first got online in 1994 but it was on a Gateway 2000 DX-2.
I remember almost cheering at the final scene, which proved that Batman is even more of a legend than I am.
In fact my only real problem with the film was the scene which didn’t deliver on its threat. Personally I would have followed through, but good luck getting a PG-13 rating with THAT.
Batman’s not a legend! Batman is a villain and a scoundrel and a scumbag! Gah!
soooooooo the ‘Goodie’ reflects and represents YOUR worldview… and the baddie the antithisis. surprising ?
Wait? Did you just try to make a point Monkey? Am I so poor a writer that you think I argue that the Joker is a “goodie” character? Let me quote the new man Paul, “There is no one righteous, not even one”
Another Monkey clip made me think of you today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r856_yCHgFg
ha, yes my company of helper monkeys are of world renoun.
then of course there is the monkey dark side…
[tried (for way too long) to find a clip of Burns' monkey army... 'fly my pretties, fly!]
So how come my Facebook is telling me ‘Kevin Hargaden is at Alton Towers’?
Anyway, tips for success:
1. Run for Pope; do not give up on the dream. Make it clear to everyone else from Day 1 that that is your sole mission in life. You want to be the First Protestant Pope.
2. Hint that when you are Pope you will reserve special top Bishop posts/places in Heaven/sainthoods for people who helped you write essays while you were at college.
3. Periodically be seen to receive letters with ‘Top Secret – Papal Encyclical Enclosed’ written on the envelope. Take yourself off to a quiet yet not secluded corner to be seen reading them furtively.
4. Every now and then, when your phone rings, pick it up and say “Benny! How nice to hear from you! How’s the weather in Rome?”
5. Hint that when you are Pope you will reserve special places in Hell/Purgatory for those who opposed your rise to Popedom.
I think this will work.
Wear white socks with sandals and say things like ‘hmm, indubitably…’ pensively whilst sucking on the end of a well used pencil (that you peared yourself using a blade you bought in Easons).
They’ll love you for all the right reasons.
I suggest you indoctrinate yourself in the culture of today’s youth. Learn the phrases they use to communicate. Either grow your hair out, putting on pale makeup and eyeliner (learning to laugh like a hyena); or grow a mullet (which are in fashion now for some reason — perhaps God has given up on us?).
Find out the bands they listen to. You should talk to your younger brother; he likes some absolutely awful music. Wear tshirts of these bands; but if you decide to wear a Nirvana tshirt, don’t let on that you actually REMEMBER Nirvana or the game will be up.
Finally, ditch the smartphone and pick up a cheap Nokia, changing the ring-tone to anything other than a ringing tone.
If you’re looking for me, I’ll be sitting in my rocking chair on the porch.
Batman is a legend, and an inspiration to the mentally ill.
Problem is you’ll want to head home apres every lecture- try and have a ‘Kev zone’- a place Kev will always be.
Find another hook apart from coffee…..it’s so normalna.I suggest you could take up pipe smoking. Others would say
Essay writing is simple. The trick is to intertwingle your ideas with other peoples ideas. Unfortunately I rarely came up with my own…..
Make great friends with at least one mature student so they’ll always….oh wait you are one. Forget it
Join the last society you’d ever really think of joining and become their auditor.I humourously considered being president of both CU AND Pagan Soc in my final year…now THERE’s a CV.
The Pope job may be out, but what about Archbishop of Canterbury? They’ve got a Welsh one now, so it would be rude for Gordon Brown’s successor to turn down the chance of having an Irishman at the helm of the good ship Anglicania!
1. Congratulations.
2. Lose the Presbyterianism. Religion causes wars, duuuude.
3. Type up your essays in LaTeX. They just look so pretty and it will act as a nice addendum to your CS days.
4. Have your wife write said essays for you.
5. Derive much pleasure from the fact that your little brother gives tutorials to students more advanced in their undergraduate degrees than yourself.
6. Borrow Lisa Hannigan’s new album from your little brother for those essay writing sessions.
7. When writing essays: accept that things will move lethargically slowly while you read around the topic. Then you get to grips with it and become rather obsessive. You sit down to type and the lethargy will return. This is where the music of point 6 comes in. Listen for a while. Then, as miraculous as the latest appearance of Our Lady, you shall type to the wee hours. The free spirit shall type plentifully and overflow in verbosity. And the word count shall be exceeded and you shall be merry.
-
Dave said: “You should talk to your younger brother; he likes some absolutely awful music.”
GTFO. I’m going to a jazz concert tomorrow.
good to see i’m not the only one still flirtin with the ol’ student life! ah, the joys. freshers week is the worst as far the ‘feeling old’ bit… but when anyone over 23=mature, something seems fishy…
Ha! Am about the third of the way through Alister McGrath’s history of the reformation and gradually understanding that… I did grow up in a church of ireland church that was named after “the hill of the black pig” and was rededicated once after someone got shot in it during a rather boistrous drunken country wedding. It was much less interesting when during my time there.
That McGrath book is fantastic. I adore it. An Cnoc Ar Muice Dubh?
well they changed it to knocknamuckley cause us prods had trouble pronouncing it. but then i remember there were lots of folk who were always twitchy about the use of the phrase “holy catholic church” in the creed too, as if it was some kind of oxymoron…
Zoommatics – I see what you did there and love it!
I had the theological pleasure of taking a class or two with Barth scholars in the US. They would set enormous chunks of CD to read each night, enough to make a barely literate irish man ask for fresh underwear. When asked about their own Barth reading habits they would let their glasses drop to the end of their scholarly noses and say something like: “Oh I would never try to read more than a few pages at a time!”
Eberhard Busch’s ‘Karl Barth: His Life from Letters and Autobiographical Texts’ is worth a read while digging your way through CD.
Looking fwd to the weekly Zoommatics.
I am EXCITED!!! (I’m in america as I write this so hyperbole and hyper-enthusiasm is the name of the day! C’mon Zoomie!)
Well glad I’ll have a few people joining me for the ride. A few people that is. You and Stu. Cos alongside being excitable, Americans like to repeat things. There’ll be a few reading this Barthian blog. Yessiree!
The Big Man might read it too; I’m sure he’d appreciate some help making his way through Barth. Although I guess he does have the man himself to ask. Just me and Stu then I guess…
Any one can say ‘I am the truth’…. doesn’t make it so Zoom.
The sentiment kinda works with Socrates… because he maybe didn’t even physically exist… but thats irrelevant… for him, the works and philosophys where everything. for jesus … if he didn’t actually exist in the way the NT says then well… yeah he has some good sayings etc attributed to him… but not in the Socrates league.
Not that I’m advocating infant experimentation… but I wonder what would have happened if a child in the middle ages had grown up not being told the NT as fact… what effect that would have had on their ‘innate’ theism.
The phrase ‘Atheism sprung up’ is revealing of the mindset. Surely lack of knowledge about ‘anything’ is default. In this post you’re almost sentimental for the middle ages when everyone was much wiser than they are now. hmm.
Bah. Socrates definitely existed. The only question is how realistic the portraits painted of him by contemporaries like Plato, Xenophon and Aristophanes were.
D EX.
yeah, i know… was just being mischievous. i guess the ‘real’ point is that it wouldn’t mater if he did or not (re the main zoom point)… or if is sayings/acts are accurately reported… whereas for Jesus… i know Socrates existed… i have a personal relationship with him
(sorry)
I don’t think “I am the Truth” would get many nods from Socrates. I would (naively) describe the truth that Socrates was referring to as the set of all statements which are true. Jesus was presumably being much more specific. Maybe Jesus should have said “I represent a proper subset of the truth”. Though that doesn’t have the same poignancy.
No. No no no.
I disagree.
He was certainly and definitely not claiming a proper subset of the set Truth. He was claiming to be the creator, sustainer and summation of everything that is true.
Even representation is too small a word for the claim he makes.
I still think we run into issues if we interpret Jesus’s statement as a claim that He is the summation of everything that is true, while at the same time referring to the formal notion of truth that philosophers like Socrates use/used. For example: Under the axioms of existence* and the axiom of extensionality*, there exists one, and only one, empty set. This lemma is true, and if Jesus is the summation of everything that is true then He must, at least in part, be this lemma. It’s a claim that makes very little sense. In fact, even the idea of being the sustainer/creator of everything that is true is troubling, as many truths (such as the one I just mentioned) don’t need sustenance, or even a moment of creation, as truth can simply be an intangible property of intangible things. Jesus might have been the creator of all that is good, but ‘true’, as used by Socrates, Plato, et al is a different kettle of fish.
*I haven’t described these axioms because they’re boring to everyone but me and beside the point.
My point actually can be compressed to this: the Christian is making the outrageous claim that since Plato, the west has been barking up the wrong tree and truth is in fact primarily relational and not an abstract intellectual endeavour.
Morb, we know that this incarnational claim is very distressing. See: 600 years of ecumenical councils.
zoomtard i do not understand this post. you are too smart and i do not know who daniel dennet is (although i guess i could google it right now!) are you saying that trying to form arguments that God exists is a waste of time because knowledge of God is innate? Why were the classical arguments forged? who were the other christians and why did they need to hear that their thinking was rational? Also are you’re saying that athisim was born out of non-christians encountering arguments for proof of GOd that were intended to encourage believers? if so i think that is quite funny.
Not actually a comment, but what’s the header pic at the mo? Looks amazing!!
>>… we come to the point where we believe what we believe based on a complex network of factors like experience, upbringing, education and even sometimes a little bit of thought
Would you add “our hopes and our fears” to that list? The hope of what we’d like to be true, and the fear of what might be true -- given the presence of the ‘known unknown’.
Dan Dennett looks like Santa.
I don’t believe in Santa, so why should I believe in Daniel Dennet. They’re just the same.
QMonkey- do you accept that your views are formed in part by fears?
Santa is real. I saw a movie about it with Mr. Attenborough in it.
>>QMonkey- do you accept that your views are formed in part by fears?
goodness.
Yeah. We’re all in the same boat. you think i’m so arrogant that i think you are and i’m not?
the sum of our experience, education, upbringing, hopes & fears.
the game is surely.. to keep the last three from usurping the first two
Mr monkey, im never satisfied with your answers.
I offer only questions…
…but truth sometimes peaks out from behind the lack of a convincing answer
thanks zoomtard:-) this has been most enlightening. a little funny and a little sad. God should punch us in the gub often, it’d save him a lot of hastle, shame he loves us.
Well then i aint satisfied with YOU!
Zoomy
Just saw your college id card on another post and had to say that theres a fair amount of milhouse in you.. Possibly you are related to the O Van Houtens of Kildare?
I am the definitive Poindexter.
ZT what is your fav Milhouse moment. i bet you have it to hand?
maybe the “abandoned warehouse security guard job” episode? “i was watching, i saw the whole thing… first it started to fall.. then it fell”
My dad is a big wheel down at the box factory
Zoom.
Thought youd be the man to interpret this. I found it in the Christian Community Bibles’ ( a Roman Catholic translation) intro to Romans
” we have said however that this letter had its roots in Paul’s experience as a Jew, a Pharisee and an apostle called directly by Christ. It is from that point that Paul spoke of sin and justification, of call, of salvation through faith. For their part Luther and his contemporaries read this letter against the background of their own problems -- or rather- their anguish.
They magnified the perspective of sin and eternal condemnation, victims of a philosophy (nominalism) in which nothing good or bad in itself but only if God declares it so. Because of that everything Paul said about predestination of the Jewish people was interpreted by them as a personal predestination to heaven or hell”
Theres more but im interested to know what you think they are trying to say here… I don’t know what nominalism is.
St David of Wales earned his sainthood in a devastating confrontation with the Pelagians.
They weren’t particularly fond of infant baptism, if I remember correctly.
As soon as the priests read this you’ll be out on your arse, you left-footed bastard.
Well David of Wales can go dunk himself in a river. Depriving the little babbies like that!
The priests will never discover me here Clairebo. Nuns won’t let them use Google.
Well, who knew it’d be the cold bosom of a nun that’d be your salvation?
God presumably.
Mr tard.
well that was a good bit more content than i expected so thank very much.
So to recap, luther wasnt influenced by the nominalists cause the people who are supposed to nominalists arnt actually that. and the schools of thinking that where around at the time- luther told em to feck off …so he was all augustiney- who was au uber prod… yeah?
What are universals. and did luther like em?
maybe i should just go to school myself. ( but trousers.. the internet is free!!)
one more question…lets see the priests read your anwser to this.
the next paragraph in the introduction is this
“When Paul spoke of justification – a word that at that time had a large and imprecise meaning- he meant that God re-establishes in us an order which is the true one; they understood instead that if we believe, God will accept us even if nothing has changed in us. The great perspectives of humankind and history as a battlefield of sin and grace, were reduced to a personal problem:am i really free or am I enslaved to sin or grace. Taking literally Paul’s images of and comparisons, a doctrine of original sin was developed in which we all pay now and forever for the sin of our first ancestors.”
what makes you of that?
What’s Batman doing in jail?
Many Calvinist posit a sharp dichotomy between “human” ways of knowing (philosophy, science, humanism in general) and divine revelation. Thus, they cling to the latter alone and scorn those who would attempt to create norms of understanding through the other ways of knowing. One of my favorite examples is the Calvinist who rejects evolution, not on any scientific grounds, but solely because of a certain reading of Genesis (and Romans 5). Obviously this is not every Calvinist (or even every Creationist), but there are enough examples to form a stereotype of “narrow,” “close-minded,” “sectarian,” etc. This isolation from other mediums of knowledge creates an “us” vs. “them” mentality, where “us,” of course, is right with God and “them” are not.
Did you just agree with Calvin?
Taylor, I have always been quick to appreciate Calvin and for reasons like the ones outlined above by the other Kevin (Hi!), I stay well away from Calvinists.
Sorry im a bit thick , or at least im thicker than you. but what does
“then the appropriate response to those who are too optimistic about our ability to work things out for ourselves is humble agnosticism.” Mean?
Because I am a bit dodgy about just how good us humans are at finding out what is THE GOOD, I can’t jump down someone’s throat when I think they are too confident of themselves. Because of my doubt, I have to hear their point of view and respectfully give it space.
My own position logically demands that I can’t go argue my position with doctrinaire force, because my own position is one that doubts how good any of us are at finding out what is the moral good…
Any better? Clarity is a sign of intelligence by the way. My incomprehensibility is not.
ok. but then when would you ever argue? if you dont trust you reasoning to figure it out how can you trust it to reason anything? how can even HOLD to anything not to mind argue with someone you disagree with?
and yeah…Lewis said something to the effect that if you cant explain something in the vernacular you dont understand it really.
Come on boys! Unless one is chosen by his creator to be granted an undeniable external revelation of eternal truths… then our reasoning is all we have. The reasoning to assess holy books, claims and myths and make a decisions on their reliability, accuracy and importance. If you don’t trust your ability to reason, then play it safe, don’t pander to hopes and fears… assume the emperor has no magical cloak…until fully convinced otherwise.
Great reasoning Monkey. You prove my case:
“f you don’t trust your ability to reason”, just wait it seems, “until fully convinced otherwise.”
Just wait… and learn, explore, discuss, create
….rather than imagine deities to explain the known unknowns.
in saying that, would Athens have been so intellectually effective if they hadn’t introduced all the ‘algebrec’ place holder gods. maybe not. You won’t find the QMonkey in the ‘all religion/gods are bad’ camp .
anyway.. “Sinn Fein in the Membrane” (great name) aludes to the obvious problem… it was your/Jansen’s reason that determind that the New Testement events actually physically happended as reported… so if you can’t trust that.. then its a pretty moot (though interesting) point anyway.
I don’t think you quite dealt with an objection. You just kept talking to yourself. Which is curiously… like you.
Aah well. twas a good post anyway. What i really want to know is what the priests make of the presbyterian in the back row… You might have a dodged a bullet this time but i bet they have a few juicers waiting to throw your way!
Just pointing out the obvious my man. pointing to the emperor and making a call. I tend to be very wary of people who say…. naaaaa don’t trust your reason and judgement, don’t you know that you can’t know everything!… just have faith in this thing i have faith in…hand over your soul/money, you won’t regret it.
Yeah thanks for that. We were all about to be tricked by my desire to get your soul and your money.
The intriguing title of this post took me in the wrong direction completely, given that I am a Methodist who graduated from Edinburgh University and so was doffed by John Knox’s trousers…
But anyway… Thanks for these reflections… One problem that systematic theologians often fall into is a lack of understanding of the social and personal histories of classic theologians and the original Biblical material. Neither Luther nor Augustine can be fully understood without reference to their personal experiences… especially with reference to the issues of Justification and Atonement. They both offer us valuable insights to these issues, but they are fallible human facets of a multi-dimensional prism focused on the eternal truths that I am ultimately happy to leave God to explain in the fullness of eternity. Mind you, it won’t stop me debating these issues at length with friends in the pub.
They will not, however, change my attempts to point others towards God, which are rarely based upon epistemology, but can usually be reduced to the simple (if not simplistic) “We are sinful. God is gracious. But don’t take him for granted.”
I came onto your page looking for a piece of engaging rhetoric on the Brand/Russell debacle and this is what I get? Lederhosen-wearing terrorists and pseudo-messiahs? Come on!
I never thanked you for replying, so , ahh thank you . Ive learnt stuff which is good, or maybe its not. Apparently all things ontology is out and practical engagment with the now is the new spirtuality. No mention of ethics in the creeds is there!! the Smart feck-wads never bothered to tell us how to live life, just what we should believe.
Oh well.
“No mention of ethics in the creeds is there!! the Smart feck-wads never bothered to tell us how to live life, just what we should believe.”
What you talkin’ ’bout Trousers!? The Apostles Creed says, “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.” All of those are ethical eggs, waiting to hatch.
Believing in the forgiveness of sins is an ethical statement.
May. Be. So. brotha but how many MILLIONS of people repeat those words week in week out who is up to no good later that day?
Anyways point is, that I know that these words are little eggs o goodness but me thinks people want to be SHOWN stuff or failing that shown how to figure it out rather than be hear whats true.
Alot of recentering (zoommatics) focuses on getting back to the right idea rather than the right livin, and i aint talking bout a list of rules im talking bout gettin to Jesus when im doin something as mundane as mowing the lawn.
therefore bye-bye ontology hello jesus when im on the bog.
You. Sir. Are a Prophet!
Seriously though, I totally agree.
Yeah. Stay out of Belgium.
Didn’t you learn anything from cryptography class?
Beer. Waffles. Chocolate. There’s a reason why these are the cliche things to do in Brussels.
Interesting post. This reminds me of something I heard a Pastor say recently. He said that “The Bible is true, but it’s not the truth – Jesus is the truth”.
Tremendous!
And what an amazing website the folks in Kildare have! Quite stupendous.
Thanks for letting us know! I’d not heard anything about it.
My wife and I will be there (I hope).
Looking forward to it!
Im going to the mosque next week and im wondering if anyone has any good questions i could ask them?
I might just get down to carlow as well. which by the way is famous for flooding and eating scallions… ok nothing.
Hey Zoomy,
I was there and after the talk I popped up to the corner of the room that I surmised you had been sitting (Claire asked a question, right?) I suppose I missed you, however.
It was a great talk.
& I even had Tom sign my copy of NTPG.
John Waters is such a great writer – Race of Angels is perhaps the best book ever written about U2. His memoir, Lapsed Agnostic, is high on my reading list.
But before Jesus came there was Judaism pointing the way to such a saviour. Hope is essentially a Christian concept, but not uniquely a Christian concept. For us hope can ultimately be embodied only in Christ, but if we were made without hope perhaps Christ would have no relevance to us. Yet the gospel introduces hope. Poverty of heart responds to hope inspired so definitively by Christ and for some of us there is no turning away.
And in reference to your latest comments on Barth, perhaps the Bible is only an authority over us when it points us to this solution, this uncovered truth. In the same way that a tree unobserved, falling in the forest can be true but unable to convince, the Bible’s truth is only convincing to those who live within its spiritual environment.
Until the apocalypse perhaps or some private epiphany.
But when the apocalypse comes the Bible may have served its purpose and we won’t need anyone to point the way to the truth.
Anyway this is getting away from the whole theme of your blog. I’m going to try to sleep again (Rough day at work and more to come)
Hope you slept well Jim.
We saw W. during a trip to Canada a few weeks back. I’m no fan of Bush and an admirer of some of Stone’s work, but I was really disappointed by this film. For what they are worth – nothing actually! – here are my thoughts from the day after: http://tinyurl.com/66kxe7
Just how ugly were the stamps?
I think it’s some kind of map reference.
Tg
They’re called chainage markers. They measure the number of tenths of a mile travelled on a road from its beginning to its end. The sign in your photo is 62.5 miles from the beginning of the N4. The whole system is based on surveying precedents, rather like the MP (mile point) markers you see along railways. Interestingly, since the development of the M4, the chainage along where your photo is taken is probably no longer accurate.
Well about time you showed up with your much-spoken of genius Dillon! I will refer all questions to you from now on. For example, what should I buy the wife for Christmas and who did the best cover of Psycho Killer by The Talking Heads?
Tell me!
The stamps were uglier than her. It was a principled decision.
I don’t normally rely on sci-fi for these discussions, but I would recommend watching the film “Solaris”. It does a good job of showing why a human being should not be characterised by biological features like DNA or blastocyst cells.
i would agree Morbet… zoomster loves to have his cake and eat it… if i said anything like the above i’d be accused of being reductionist. Humanity is more than DNA, and is for me, it is not even defined as such. I’m not 100% how/when i define it or have any immovable position in the debate… but a strand of dna aint got human rights
ok ok so I have a few different names…
My grandfather would be proud to hear that ive finally had influence on the bishops. I suppose its too much to hope that they swipped aside the chalice from the altar and threw calvins institutes up in their place?!!
Seriously though thats well cool that they mentioned you in the prelude.. chrissy told me about it a few days later ( your probably wondering who i am now…:)) . Id have been grinning a two foot wide smile if id been there.
Morb, all I’m thinking about is George Clooney’s bottom.
QMonkey, so many problems with everything you have said. You say, to me of all people, “Humanity is more than DNA” Were you under the impression from this article written by a Christian evangelist detailing the curious “realness” of Christian “supernaturality” that I disagreed?
Fascinating. Maybe at some point you could outline a viewpoint on war theory?
“Suppose there is a fire in an IVF unit, and the firemen rush in to find the pregnant lab assistant overcome by the smoke on the floor. Should they rescue her, or all the trays of embryos? If human embryos really are human lives, as valuable as any other, they would grab the trays from the refrigerator -- but in reality, we know that this is absurd”
Excellent post Kevin, would be interested also to hear a “war” theory… give you something to do in between snooker and Barth!
I’m sure you are really enjoying the studies.
Is your premise not flawed there QM? Us well schooled Catholic seminarians would object to the IVF unit in the first place.
ahhhh, rats. you got me.
honestly… its an issue i flip flop about. any one with a decent argument either way has been nodding along. its a lot simpler to consider from a benign thestic perspective. the question of when is a human a human… is fraught… in a ’soulless’ paragidm.
i respect consistency though.
So if such a crucial question “pops out” from a theistic perspective, have you ever thought about coming back over and giving us a fresh go. We’re new and improved these days.
if the opium didn’t feel good, and act as an easy answer to difficult questions… it wouldnt be so successful. but i’ve managed to kick it. for better or worse
that’s what i heard anyway
so i’ve gotta settle for cold hard, uncomfortable reality… i’ve looked behind the curtian, swallowed the red pill. maybe i’ve passed the test, and you’ve failed it… only people who realise the jesus stuff is nonsense get into heaven
I heard only people who butcher Karl Marx get into heaven. You’ll get a mansion.
Finished reading that article this afternoon, thoroughly enjoyed. Have you read Liars’ Poker? When I arrived in the financial world, my colleague deemed it a right of passage that I read it. Inciteful and funny, and, to be honest, the story runs parallel to the economic events of the last few years.
I read this article today – a poignant story of the human cost of abortion to mother and child ..
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article5212421.ece
a worthy winner – congrats! Dyan and theology, Volf, JPII and Hauerwas all in one … how to top that? Is another side of the picture the USA’s deeply democratic structures that act as a built in self-corrective to abuses of Empire like Guantanamo?
“Is another side of the picture the USA’s deeply democratic structures that act as a built in self-corrective to abuses of Empire like Guantanamo?”
I think you’ve just given me the topic for the post-grad competition next semester.
Great stuff. You’ll have to tell us if you win.
Cant wait to see if B.O. will reverse some of the legislation that gave the last administration so much power. Its one thing to see rightwingers with such a big fist but what does the other side look like when it swings the hammer?
I think it is already certain that Gitmo will be torn down under BO. Thank God! By the way, I did win.
I think he will too… actually twould be great if he gave it back to the cubans entirely.
But i was more refering to the things mentioned in the new york times article of a couple of posts ago.
Well done on winning. what did you get for it besides the satisfaction?
I got my name written on a perpetual trophy. And a small cash prize. Also, I now get to write “Thomas Aquinas Award, 2008″ on my academic CV if I ever want to do more post-grad work. I understand that is like a secret handshake to let you in to all kinds of deadly Pontifical universities. Now if only I was still a Roman Catholic….
You are so on the money your head should be on a coin! How could we have misunderestimated her so!?
I guess one notable difference between the current “bailout” and the various costs of wars is that this current bailout is a mixture of loans and purchased equity in ailing companies. The actual cost depends on the return to the taxpayer after the crisis subsides. In theory this “could” be profit, it is most likely to be a significant loss but unlikely to be all of the loaned money. One example is AIG US… they are selling off their overseas assets which are perfectly secure businesses in order to pay back the Fed. AIG UK (one of those assets) could be sold on (admittedly at a reduced price) to another insurance company with cash, that money would be used to pay back the Fed.
Except for Iceland.
i great money programme special on bbc 2 the other night
American Timebomb
.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00fvwdt/b00fvvkj/This_World_American_Time_Bomb/
you get Auntie Beeb over there?
The situation of china in all of this, is the interesting/worrying thing. A simalar situation struck the British empire back in the day… solution being just to invade the blooming Chinese and force them to keep buying the opium …
Bored by his novels!!!!????
Then my friend you are bored of life itself.
You must lend me some more.
Lewis’s quote is always good value,(and probably technically correct) but we need to remember its context, where he was contrasting his snooty approach to worship with the genuine involvement in worship by people around him, effectively saying that the technical quality of the hymns doesn’t matter at the end of the day… it is the heart of the hymn-singer that is important…
Good point. You and Eno will change my attitude together!
I love this. Let’s play this during worship on Sunday.
Consider it done lady!
You should go to a “real” church like UTown
We are all about conspiracy!
Go tell it to my woman Gleddiesmith. Cos she’s the one keeping me away from Vancouver.
I have loved the way my church has done this the last couple of years. Some poetic friends wrote an Advent Conspiracy prayer guide if you want to see it. http://www.thetablepdx.com/missional-journey/advent-conspiracy-2008/
Most of the churches over here have been doing it. One time that the rebellious nature of Portland comes in handy.
go on zoom, gimme a bit of meat to chew.
if you’re bored and struggling for posts you can always poke the monkey!
Bjork (certifiable performer that she is) is celebrating individualism in this song as only she can! Whereas this is a significant day in the history if nationalism within Ireland… Are either nationalism or individualism something that we as Christians should be buying into never mind celebrating.
Yes!
It was the end of tyranny and so should be remembered, commemerated and celebrated. She is not celebrating individualism whatsoever and I struggle to follow the link.
no problems with the end of tyranny… In fact I say amen to that… But do we sometimes switch one tyranny for another? British imperialism was an evil dressed up as a divinely ordained state of affairs… But narrow nationalism, be it Irish, British, Serbian, German or whatever, also has an extemely dangerous (if not downright idolatrous) dimension.
And as for Bjork not celebrating individualism… Ha! She is the high-priestess of the same.
I suppose I’m just not into independence… more a sense of mutual interdependence… And if we don’t need to learn that in this part of the world I don’t know where does…
Its a good track tho!
It’s worth noting that the Treaty also declared that the Irish Free State would come into existence one year after signing, i.e. 6 December 1922.
And I think it’s a shame this country doesn’t commemorate 22 August.
I personally look forward to the day it commemorates March 5th.
Self determination need not lead to any kind of destructive nationality. When the island of Ireland is unified there will be great celebration of “Unionist” landmarks.
As a point of interest, do you wear a poppy?
both red and white… See post on subject chez moi…
Kevin,
Still thinking about some of this stuff re the mission of the church. Here’s my question:
I see Hauerwas’ point about not ‘revolutionizing society’, but given that the new community exists within a larger social framework, doesn’t it necessarily begin to revolutionize that society? Like when you add yeast to the rest of the dough (I know, it’s a cheap shot, playing the yeast card). It’s a separate community from the dough, but once it’s incorporated, it becomes part of the dough and transforms it.
Talk of the church creating a counter-culture (instead of being involved in transforming culture) scares me because it conjures images of a self-satisfied jar of yeast, looking scornfully at a lump of dough that can’t rise.
Dan
who is this stanley chap – give him a medal or something. fantastic stuff…
Dan,
I can’t answer for Stanley (because I haven’t read enough of his stuff and he’s a lot more intelligent than i) or Zoomtard (he’s unpredictable!) but an idea that I like is that of a ‘parallel culture’. This is not original, I got it via Dr. Trevor Morrow who got it from Vaclav Havel. It’s not a separate culture nor is it assimilated into the culture instead it goes alongside the culture. Of course it has its weaknesses in that parallel lines go the same way. Maybe zoomtard can enlighten us on what Havel/Morrow meant by it?
Zoomtard,
Is Stanley saying that the church is the gospel?
Andy,
Staley Hauerwas is the writer of the next book that you are going to read, it really doesn’t matter which one you read as they’re all great. He’s a professor of theology and law at Duke University in North Carolina.
MG, I hear what you’re saying, and maybe the issue is that we aren’t (or at least I’m not) very clear on what we mean by ‘culture’. Most ‘cultures’ are made up of smaller communities of people living in parallel. Each community has its own set of norms, practices, identity, etc. I guess it’s in that sense that I see the church seeking to remain part of and transform culture and not create a new one. A new community – yes. A new community with different norms, practices, identity – yes. But a new culture? No – because it continues to function in the stream of the broader social framework, and it seeks to transform and revolutionize that stream.
zoombonkers.
>>we see without a shadow of a doubt that there is a God
really? what happened to Zoomtard the ‘form of agnostic’ ?
i was close to tears when i watched this too .. but it does no good to start asking a daddy-god to step in… you gotta do it, i gotta do it, just as we have been over the centuries… as the world has progressed to a place were you are now in an instant aware and concerned about specific injustices around the world. Prayer’s might make you feel like your doing something or that there is some form of eternal justice… but Mr Theroux has done more than all the prayers in the world, by shinning his light on failures in society. Prayers don’t lower crime rates… politics, education, wealth creation does
The health of politics, education and even wealth creation correspond to the amount of pray-ers in a society. QM, do you seriously propose for our fellow readers (all 7 of them) that the people who pray just sit on their hands self satisfied at the end? Or can you not at least acknowledge that there is a very high rate of social change that has historically begun in prayer…
(Careful now, I’m not asking you to accept that there was a God to hear the prayer, just that the prayer is certainly not futile, sociologically or historically)
>>here is a very high rate of social change that has historically begun in prayer…
of course
i would how ever take an implication from that, that the object of the prayer isnt overly important. Louis Farakan apparently gets loads of people in Jail off drugs… after praying to his pretend god… yeah? but its now messure of the power or reality of his god
“But in our reaction to people like her who are so tormented we see without a shadow of a doubt that there is a God.”
I predictably disagree.
That clip moves us, but not because what has happened is wrong. It moves us because the girl is in pain. Our abhorrence of human pain and suffering on such a personal level is why we are here today. It’s our armour against a cold and indifferent earth.
It is regrettably a fragile abhorrence, and can be snuffed out by culture, ideologies, war, rage, and a bunch of other things with unsettling ease. But this repugnance is still ubiquitous on a fundamental level; it was a simple trait belonging to the woman whom we are all descended from.
Also… lets not forget.. there are sadder things in the world that drug addicts. She has choices.. she’s made bad ones, and she can recover to make good ones. Maybe the prayers to should rationed more towards kids born with Aids and who contract other illnesses and disabilities.
they told Helen that she would have to do a course in HALO and intensive krav maga training, become fluent in Mandarin, Swahili and learn how to kill a man by staring at him as well as the history of Presbyterians before she could start the application process—she should be finished 2021
They just told me I had to learn to hate the Right Rev Dr. from Lucan and everything he stands for. Also, I’ll have to be able to sneak into the Vatican undiscovered with nothing but a priest’s outfit and a Lambourghini. They seem to be inordinately fond of Mission Impossible up there in Belfast…
Zoomy, you’ve got to stop posting videos that get removed due to terms-of-use violations.
D
C
Here is a good link to it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Wz-XvvF80
Thanking you sir! I am off to edit this post and render my disapproving housemate looking like the buffoon he truly is!
two things. actually 3.
1 yes and yes to what your saying
2. is there any chance that much more of the system is bollox? so far ive only known a handful of presbyterian ministers and yourself. it seems to me that the entire set of ministers are largely milhouses and lisas (and one barney). what about the barts and homers of the PCI, what voice do they have in the current set up? tis practically impossible for the incordinated and or mayhemsitic to get the collar.
3. heard ye had a debate bout baptism at yere debating thingymagiggy thing. any chance you throwing up a few thoughts?
The system as a whole even for training ministers isn’t bollix per sé. It’s more like something that doesn’t assure success for the 21st Century.
I refer you back to my college ID photo; I am the definitive poindexter. I’d leave it to others who have worked with me to say if I am sufficiently mayhemistic. The current set up of the church is very cerebral but I don’t know if that is a bad thing. Generally the church is anti-intellectual. Maybe we shouldn’t lower the bar on this one; it’s not that you should be turned back because you aren’t the bookish sort but “that’s not my personality type” shouldn’t be an excuse for being mentally lazy. Instead of focusing on the intellectual side of things, ask if we should just let people who aren’t naturally gifted pastorally become ministers? We used to do that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGDndcxH-O4
Baptism eh? Have I not made my feelings clear on that….
You are the kind of Christian that makes me think that it’s OK to remain a Chrisian, because I can still be a Christian and think that often other, other Christians, make me hang my head in despair. There was a compliment buried in there somewhere.
generally the church is anti-intellectual… i suppose thats kinda true. Got to wonder if that makes us speak above peoples heads but i guess if we understand it enough we wont.
i do make excuses. You called me out.
but your still implying that if your not bookish and feel the call then you must be a ICM worker.. which i guess is ok too.
As for the system being 21st century or not.- well its hard to maintain the PCI is “sempre reformata” when reformation happens at an inch a year. One big meeting once a year to change anything is def-in-itely bollox. maybe i dont know enough of how it works but thats how i see it at the moment.
Ive only been hanging out here for a year i havent heard you talk about baptism. ive been reading calvin and i think he’s wrong. GASP!
http://maryquitecontrary.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/virtual-reality/
“Where there is ignorance there is fear and by contrast where there is knowledge there is understanding and respect.” – @ 6:23
i agree with this. is it any different to when God says “Love drives out fear”???
Actually he says
“where theres ignorance theres fear and where theres fear theres conflict and by contrast where theres understanding theres more likely to be harmony” – @6:43
and the bible says “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear,” – 1 john something
i guess a part of perfect love is understanding. but surely not all of it?
Ha, I was going to include “Creator” in my best-of too, only to find that that git Fergal had it in his last year!
I’d appreciate it if you could remove the link to my best-of; that is not intended to be a public site and (unfortunately) can’t really be made public due to the sensitive nature of some of the files. It’s fine for me to share around with a group of friends, but not to advertise publicly.
great stuff… rem, yes. santogold yes, coldplay, yes (true/false
) fleet foxes, yes. Hold steady? i want to like. maybe i will soon
Well I think we can rest assured that love goes beyond all understanding. But that’s a really nice connection you make.
Blair is in Christianity Today on the Gaza-invasion today: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/decemberweb-only/153-21.0.html
Dang it! How can ONE person have a year like this?!? Who exciting did I meet this year…? Ehhh… Martyn Joseph? Except I actually didn’t really MEET him, meet him – just stood by awkwardly as everyone else I knew chatted to him like an old pal. I like to think is because I’m much too cool to play ‘avid-mushy-gushy-fan’, however, in different circumstances suchas a Take That concert, or a Johnny Depp film preview, I’d be weeping and screaming with the best of ‘em.
I will endeavour to console myself with the fact that most of the people you met would mean pretty much nothing to your average Joe on the street. However, if you convince anymore of MY friends to move to Maynooth, I may become very upset…
Why don’t you move to Maynooth? It’s the place to be.
Also, Martyn Joseph is a chum-p. He sings it himself in one of his droning 47 minute long songs (you can tell he’s a Christian cos he uses music to preach at you as boringly as any Presbyterian minister). The lyrics go like this, “Ooooh. Oooooh. (More soulful ‘Oooooohs’). The Man he be gettin’ me down. Nuclear bombs may go off anytime. Good Lord won’t you come back some time cos everyone here knows I’m a chum-p. Ooooooh.”
It fades out to him singing the chorus line to a Bob Marley song so you can be sure that even though he is a Christian, he’s cool.
Happy New Year, Kevin! Thanks for including me in your recap! By the way, what’s a Cabra girl? Maybe I’ll get to see you in May. . .
Sounds like an amazing year, but if baseball is reason to come to the States you should ditch whoever that is the Mariners shirt and start pulling for the cubbies.
I think in a somewhat ironic twist my year ended with a girlfriend dressed up to look like Juno. She really did look like her. And gosh darn it, I almost liked to start the movie because I associated it with Olivia. But then I remembered, I DON’T LIKE THAT MOVIE!
MG: I think your Harry Potter costume won the evening and even though you read all those imaginary messages out of Juno I’d still be well up for a long train ride into town some evening to have a few pints with you and the Monaghan boy; when law study subsides of course.
Matthew: It is I who is guilty of bearing the Mariners shirt. Don’t you know that all Christian people of maturity naturally support the hopeless underdog?
Craig- Happy new year to you. I look forward to maybe catching up in May. A Cabra girl is a girl from Cabra! A less than leafy region of North Dublin, where my wife Claire is from. A part of Dublin where good auld fashioned Dubs still live…
just thinks God establishes free will by reducing alternative possibilities to one
????
an example that explains if you can please.
Methinks i have found the new anthem for the PCI in 2009
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=hvczhOooSNU
Hi Sinn Féin in the Membrane, it might make no sense either but I answered that question in my own way at http://jimlad.furiousthinking.org/?p=31.
Well actually maybe it would make more sense if I said that we are going for a walk for God whether we allow him to hold his hand or whether he has to put us on a leash. That’s what our free will means.
That was not helpful.
the wording of this—I said that we are going for a walk for God whether we allow him to hold his hand or whether he has to put us on a leash.— was also not helpful. But thankfully i worked through and am still no clearer. kinda.
remember theres only one JC .
I left out the idea that there is only a single destination on that walk, but your free will is still present in whether you choose to walk with God or not. Either way he’s deciding where to go.
How this works out isn’t 100% clear to me either, but it is an analogy I find helpful.
With regard to my unfortunately evasively worded blog post, I have found that I haven’t taken enough time to get closer to God over the past year due to my priorities, which isn’t nice, yet in the end I still end up learning from him, the hard way, and getting closer.
That’s how I would understand Zoomtard’s comment though he may correct me. You have free will to decide which of the alternative possibilities you choose, and in my case I chose getting carried away with overtime and alternative pastimes to getting closer to God. Yet God also decides which possibility he wants, which in my case involves getting closer to him. And God’s decision determines the outcome, not mine.
Thus predestination and free-will can walk hand in hand.
More helpful?
Remember that getting closer to God means choosing a better relationship with him, so my free will to choose has also changed to comply with God’s decision.
I don’t really understand the theological implications. Wait, no, do you mean spiritual death is different from physical death? Are they related? How do you know which one the Bible is talking about, or is it ok to interpret a literal meaning as a metaphor in order to integrate it with modern life, or do I mean death? What do I mean? How many kinds of dead are there anyway?
I hate these throwaway closing statements. Please stop.
Go see the incredible slumdog millionaire it will restore your spirit! Did you not see the trailer for Spirit? I had it marked as one to miss after about 30 secs.
Ah I trusted a friend (and silent reader of this blog) to choose. He has now been banned from ever deciding anything ever again. He has to text us for permission to pee. Actually it’s gotten kinda weird. Maybe this was his plan all along…
Excellent post.
After reading it I decided to listen to Cohen’s and Buckley’s versions back-to-back, and then listen to yer wan’s. I only got as far as Buckley’s though (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AratTMGrHaQ) because I was foolish enough to read the accompanying comments.
rOoNy911’s contribution: “Why associate religion with this? RIP Jeff Buckley <3″
The Scottish Falsetto Sock Puppet version remains the finest, and probably the truest to the intended sentiment of the original.
Thanks Ends. Well done with the A by the way.
Sock puppets are the most appropriate vehicle for the song now Sharon
Incidentally, we figured a wee day trip to maynooth may be useful to see all the bibles in irish and all that. We’ll have our people phone your people… Well I’ll let you know if we decide on a date to come down. people in church here seems to know keith so there’s a bit of a connection
incidentally in the ben folds vid is that a pygmy or a small child in the backing vocalists?
Go sock puppets!
I thought it rude to comment on the littler lady. I’m delighted you did though, you mean scummer!
Surely the song casts more than a passing glance at Samson? We don’t necessarily blame the women involved – well, we do, a bit – but it’s to do with that fatal weakness or madness that can “break a human being and turn him inside out”, to quote those other distinguished Canadians.
It surely does Stephen. And that is an important angle that I didn’t get round to it. The role that Scripture gives the respective wives in Samson and David’s stories would be a pretty interesting study…
I don’t get the Canadian reference.
Zoombrain, I read Dr. Mitchel’s article and liked it. Soapbox can stop his ranting, at least partially, on Irish church leaders speaking out about current events!
But I was wondering, do you think there is any connection between the repetitive failure of markets and there constant diversion of people away from community with the biblical ideas of powers and principalities? As in, do you think there might be ‘an invisible hand’ behind markets/corporations etc. which might not be so benevolent as the pro-market economists would have us believe? And if so how does that shape our response to a crashing market and its impact on the lives of our families, friends and neighbours?
I ask because you (and Dr. Mitchel) allude to the detrimental effects that our consumerism has had on our spirituality. Is that because the markets impact people, who are inherently spiritual (if anybody doesn’t agree just take it as given for the purpose of my question) and therefore has spiritual impact. Or is there a spiritual element to the markets which has a spiritual impact with everything it touches? (I really wish my vocabulary was wider than spiritual!)
A typically sharp piece by Patrick and I agree with everything both you and he are saying in this… Sadly our local church leaders have been very slow to produce an articulate critique of consumer culture, although it would likely be brushed aside as coming from economic illiterates as Rowan Williams comments pre-Christmas were… But there is also no point in waiting for our political leaders to do so… they are equally, if not more, economically illiterate, but have wedded themselves (and our children’s and grandchildren’s futures) to the all consuming consumer society… Ireland has tried to ride the tiger (and NI has attempted to ape it 15 years too late) only to discover why we have traditionally ridden herbivores!
David
oh ye of little faith
i have a friend who spent the past 2 years renting property to pilgrims in Medjugorje. He had lots of interesting stories – though they were more about dodgy bosnians with guns and the lack of rule of law…
I found this post very helpful, thank you. I had read of the ontological argument before but found it hard to get my head around.
Well that augers well for the exam answer I wrote yesterday!
Does the monkey think faith is like a bank balance?
MG, I personally think that the market is a power and principality and I understand that in the shape that Marva Dawn would outline. It’s not a codeword for EVIL and SATAN!!!! but more like an institution that has an influence so pervasive it takes the form of an active agent in the world. (Of course, Satan likes to take those all pervasive forces and use them for his ends).
I think that capitalism as it is currently imagined is bound to fail again. But I have no real way of expressing those ideas. I’ll need your help. My best friend Andy is a free marketeer and every time I talk to him about this stuff I just sound like a gloating “told you so” type. Worse, I sound preposterously naive when I offer alternatives.
Maybe we just need to start from the ground up and build Christian communities that shape virtue so that Christians can go out and redeem the system.
I do think there is something lacking in all Christian discussion of this. Capitalism obviously has a lot going for it and our vocabulary is limited to either be uncritical or to critique with a kind of leftist language that probably never made sense and certainly doesn’t post-1989. What that means in effect, is that both approaches leave the market unscathed by any prophetic voice. So go teach some economists the Gospel…
Speaking of which, where’s that little brother of mine??